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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#231

Post by Karunamon »

ndespres wrote: post #217
darkerside wrote: post #13

Not a lawyer. When the female employee says she doesn't want to cause trouble, it just means that, if you are going to do something about this situation, then you better own it. Make this a problem between you and the employee who acted inappropriately. i.e. if/when he demonstrates understandable reasons for acting the way he did, you don't turn this around on her.

Consider that when a woman reports harassment and says "I don't want to cause trouble," it's coming from a lifetime of not having her experiences taken seriously and situations like this backfiring. Boys will be boys, you shouldn't be dressing like that, maybe you shouldn't have lead him on.. and then the woman reporting the harassment gets labeled as the troublemaker instead of the real perpetrator. Demonstrate that…

it's coming from a lifetime of not having her experiences taken seriously and situations like this backfiring.

Or, because corporate culture almost everywhere can be summed up with the phrase "don't rock the boat", gender notwithstanding.

There's no need to prejudge every woman as a victim - certainly one you know nothing about other than a one paragraph story on HN.

This is what's called benevolent sexism.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#233

Post by snowwrestler »

basch wrote: post #134
icebraining wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to what was told, they moved the conversation to Whatsapp before he asked her to hang out. What would she be leading him on about?

if i said "can we move this conversation somewhere more private, and outside work" and you said "yes" is there an implication of some consent? could the guy have been imagining that her agreeing to move the convo was her approval, and anything further was her playing hard to get? that said, the magic words "sure as friends in work context" should have been a cease and desist to end any further bright ideas.

> if i said "can we move this conversation somewhere more private, and outside work" and you said "yes" is there an implication of some consent?

Consent to have a private conversation, yes. Consent for sexual advances, not necessarily.

Coworkers can ask for private conversations for all sorts of reasons. Maybe they have a work question and don't want to look dumb by asking it in front of everybody. Maybe they want a restaurant recommendation and don't want to clutter the work chat with that. Maybe they heard you've been to Orlando, and they're planning a vacation there, and is Disney World worth it? Etc.

It can even be a private conversation to ask a coworker out--that's fine if done appropriately. Dropping F-bombs, even in acronym form, is not.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#234

Post by tptacek »

I agree with Patrick: you should terminate the employee, immediately. Try to understand how lucky you just got here. Here's a simple tweak to the story you told that creates a nightmare scenario: the person who reported this to you, who was called a "milf" by the bizdev guy, was on a PIP.

I disagree with Patrick on the mechanics, subject to one condition:

If, like a sane person, you consulted a lawyer before you began hiring people, and so you're offering a standard employee agreement --- the kind every competent firm in the industry offers --- then the answer here is:

Just fire, and move on.

I don't know that "with cause" adds much.

The principle here is pretty straightforward. You got lucky this time. A new hire crossed a serious line, and the person they irritated came to you directly with a complaint, rather than through their lawyer. You will not get lucky next time. And next time, there will be a history that you'll be accountable for.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#235

Post by harryh »

tptacek wrote: post #228
harryh wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add on a bit more you are probably right about "b) terminate the offending employee for cause" but before you do that you almost certainly have to give the employee a chance to respond to the accusations. If you just fire him before doing that you are likely opening yourself up to a lawsuit for wrongful termination. Yet again, this is something that a lawyer will help you handle correctly.

This is the second comment on the thread I've seen invoking "wrongful termination". By all means, get your lawyer to confirm this fact for you, but: assuming you had the bare minimum competent legal assistance in setting up your company and its hiring documents, there is practically no such thing as wrongful termination in the US. In particular: if it is lawful for you to fire someone at all, it is probably no less l…

There are actually some legal gradients here. You are right that the OP almost certainly employs the BizDev guy as an at-will employee and can hence fire him at any time for no reason at all.

However, if he is fired for cause ("Mr BizDev guy. You are being fired because you sexually harassed Jane Smith.") instead of just fired without a reason ("Mr BizDev guy. Your services are no longer needed here. Thank you for your service.") then that cause can definitely be questioned if proper procedures were not followed.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#237

Post by YuriNiyazov »

boosting7669 wrote: post #146
patio11 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will inevitably conclude with your employer settling a claim of retaliatory treatment subsequent to reporting sexual harassment for a sum of +/- $500k and with you being fired. Your competent legal advisor will, accordingly, recommend against retaliating against the reporting employee, even if you consider this issue beneath your notice. The laws of the United States on this matter are relatively well-settled an…

I obviously wouldn't fire the employee immediately for that reason. I'd give the employee in question an impossible project, and a few months down the line when the project isn't done I'd fire citing poor performance.

I hope you are joking. You expressed no interest in "babysitting grown children", and then suggested that you yourself would proceed with a course of action that would be appropriate only for a grown child.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#239

Post by tptacek »

harryh wrote: post #235
tptacek wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the second comment on the thread I've seen invoking "wrongful termination". By all means, get your lawyer to confirm this fact for you, but: assuming you had the bare minimum competent legal assistance in setting up your company and its hiring documents, there is practically no such thing as wrongful termination in the US. In particular: if it is lawful for you to fire someone at all, it is probably no less l…

There are actually some legal gradients here. You are right that the OP almost certainly employs the BizDev guy as an at-will employee and can hence fire him at any time for no reason at all. However, if he is fired for cause ("Mr BizDev guy. You are being fired because you sexually harassed Jane Smith.") instead of just fired without a reason ("Mr BizDev guy. Your services are no longer needed here. Thank you for yo…

I'm going to keep prodding. I, too, think the "with cause" thing doesn't add much to the solution to the problem --- if only because it just adds drama. But you can fire someone for cause, be wrong about the cause, and that termination can still be lawful.

Can you be more specific about the recourse the terminated person would have in this situation?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#240

Post by mmcclure »

Ok everything about this situation aside, it feels like a bold move to post about this publicly on HN, particularly when you're concerned about trust issues. I honestly can't believe I don't see any other comments along these lines.

You run a startup. A lot of people read HN in general, but I have to assume startup employees are _even more_ likely to read HN. As such, it doesn't feel crazy that one or both of these employees might see this considering it's sitting on the front page and doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

So...there is a lot of commentary here about how you should handle this situation, but in my opinion, posting pretty specific details about it publicly was among the very worst first moves you could make.

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