Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's no reason to pull out the True Believer ad hominem. You have valid points, but it also wouldn't be the first time that a long list of drawbacks with new technology are resolved one by one until it becomes obvious to everyone that the new way of doing things is better. I think that battery-electric vehicles are in this category, and that it will be tough for competitors to catch up once the "this is obviously…
100k/year compared to 17m cars and light trucks sold in the US in 2015 is a drop in the ocean. This seems to be another example, particularly on this forum, of "living in the bubble". The bubble in this case is urban living in California, a situation with relatively low ranges of driving with temperate weather. Again, I'm not saying it won't happen. I'm simply pointing out the obvious: it's got incredibly far to go a…
Tesla will not be able to scale its manufacturing capacity
101–110 of 131 posts
Re: Tesla will not be able to scale its manufacturing capacity
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
Those battery swap stations were mixed (... For now?) http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a25...
I think you mean "nixed". Whatever the case, I tend to agree that battery swaps is not a scalable solution.
Re: Tesla will not be able to scale its manufacturing capacity
#103I've noticed several questions on this thread about manufacturing. Since I have worked in auto manufacturing, I will share some thoughts in the following areas: EV Assembly is Simpler; Humans are inefficient; Musks' Desk by the End of the Assembly Line; and Tesla is Smarter than Toyota.
This is intended as a VERY high level overview, expect many details to be glossed over.
EV Assembly is Simpler: Electric vehicles are slightly simpler than Internal Combustion engines. This does make EV Assembly slightly simpler... but not much.
Automotive Assembly plants consume parts and make finished vehicles. Assembly plants have three main areas: Body, Paint, and General Assembly. Tesla's Fremont plant has these 3 areas.
What is because Tesla makes EVs? Not the Body Shop, not the Paint shop. Is General Assembly simpler? Not by much. GA is split in two areas - Trim and Chassis. Trim no less complex on an EV than ICE. Part of the Chassis process is simpler.
So, part of 1/2 of 1/3 of the Assembly process is easier in the Assembly plant; call it 10% less complex (1/6 = 17%, but only part of that 17% is simpler).
Humans are Inefficient (also, Four Function Robot):* Efficiency, and engineering is all about trade-offs. In my opinion Musk will not be able to automate his way to 500k vehicles per year.
Humans are often perceived as inefficient because: software engineers (and most of the people reading this) tend to value their time highly and strongly dislike repetitive tasks. The perception is that if the task is automated, it is a better use of a persons' time. This can be true. This is why all auto OEMs have some automation in manufacturing.
Humans, however are better in a number of ways: humans are great at learning new tasks quickly and cheaply, humans require much lower capital expenditure to hire (they may be more expensive in the long run, but 2 years is not the long run)
Automation can also be inefficient depending on the parameter chosen. At one point Tesla had a multi-function robot that changed it's "hand" for each vehicle to perform different task. Changing the hand takes time, which Tesla cannot afford if they want to build 500k vehicles/year. Yes, you can simply add more robots, but that costs money.
As Tesla has been setting up its manufacturing process, it may have in mind future expansion and speed-up; but it has been solving current problems. Automation in particular can be troublesome to speed up (most definitely following the 80/20 rule). Portions of the assembly line may have to be re-structured to allow parallel operations, which can be expensive and time consuming.
Also, the assembly operation(s) in question have to be engineered with automation in mind (else it will be amazingly expensive). This is entirely possible, but I don't see a major breakthrough in 2 years alongside a major vehicle launch.
Musks' Desk by the End of the Assembly Line (and Tesla is Smarter than Toyota): This item in particular makes me shake my head in disbelief. On a recent earnings call, Musk said that his desk is next to the end of the production line [desk]. This suggests that Musk is attempting to inspect his way to quality. Do you know who tried to inspect their way to quality? GM (among many others). Do you know who has a good reputation for quality? Toyota. [quality]
In addition (and more pertinent to the speed-up question), quality has a quantity all its own. If you use high quality parts, you can put them together more quickly and more reliably, and thus in higher numbers. If you produce high quality vehicles, you can ship them more quickly, and again, in higher numbers.
In other words, the defects are not being added to the vehicle at the end of the assembly line, and they cannot easily be removed at the end of the line. Can you test your way to high quality software? Can you inspect your way to high quality vehicles?
[desk]: http://qz.com/676127/no-need-to-worry-elon-musks-desk-is-rig...
[quality]: 1. Musk is certainly doing more than just inspection, but his words send a very naive message. 2. GM and other companies perceived as low quality have actually caught up to, and surpassed Toyota. http://www.jdpower.com/press-releases/2015-us-initial-qualit...
Re: Tesla will not be able to scale its manufacturing capacity
#104First it was "electric cars are not viable technologically, they have no range, there is no charging infrastructure, etc." Then it was "electric cars are too expensive, they are rich peoples' toys, and mainstream consumers will never want them anyway." Now it is "Tesla will not be able to scale up to meet all the demand." The fact that EV naysayers have been forced to cycle through this spectrum of responses in less…
Same thing with reusable rockets. First it won't work, now it won't be economical. These are moribund industries where nothing has changed since the 60s. After a while they've come to believe that nothing can change. Lithium is more common in Earth's crust than lead and many other materials that are mined in significantly greater quantities.
Re: Tesla will not be able to scale its manufacturing capacity
#105Tesla's two top manufacturing execs quit just before Musk announced that he wanted volume production of the Model 3 in 2018 instead of 2020. You can imagine the discussions that went on. Perhaps in time details will surface. Tesla now faces transitioning from a low-volume high-margin manufacturer to a high-volume low-margin manufacturer. That's hard. HP, IBM, and Xerox tried that, and didn't do too well; all eventual…
1. Add a lot of automation. Costs would be excessive.
2. Add a lot of people. Cost would be quite high.
3. Improve production process. A 10x improvement in production rate in two years would be incredible to see.
4. Add another factory. See points 1 and 2; also could not happen in 2 years.
5. Partner with another OEM. This seems to me the most viable way to Musk's goals in his timeframe. We shall see...
6. Suspend building Model S and Model X vehicles; concentrate all resources on the Model III.
Re: Tesla will not be able to scale its manufacturing capacity
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
What are you talking about. I mean specifically. What state of the art manufacturing/engineering/processes do you specifically speak of that Toyota can only dream of that Tesla can employ? Are you talking from facts? OR are you talking from feelings, and hunches, and faith in Musk? Space X, is one thing... in that bracket Musk is competing with inefficient opponents who have historically benefitted from lack of compe…
What are =you= talking about? Tesla's manufacturing capabilities are far more modern and informed by Silicon Valley. Electronic cars (outside the Model X) have far fewer parts and are substantially less complex than combustion engine. Tesla has =far= better software development capabilities which is becoming much more important. Tesla has a much simpler distribution network and much closer contact with users. etc, et…
which is all to really say... 1 plant vs 40-70 plants... 90K vehicles produced per year to 9,000K vehicle/year... unproven manufacturing prowess vs universally accepted best manufacturing capability
toyota is universally accepted as having the most advanced automotive manufacturing as far as major manufacturing... Even Elon Musk wouldnt have the balls to make the claims you guys are making here... please lets stick to reality.
i wish tesla well... they i think are going to be the main catalyst in popularizing the electric car... will they actually hit 500K units in 2018 out of the Fremont factory? seems unlikely given their track record but maybe... i mean toyota was able to produce that much out of the same facility before it was upgrade about a decade ago so its possible...
Re: Tesla will not be able to scale its manufacturing capacity
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
No offense intended but you come off sounding like a True Believer here. There have been and continue to be severe limitations on electric cars: - high cost of batteries - limited range largely limits them to urban settings - materials currently required for manufacturer are limited - cold weather reduces battery effectiveness and thus range - time to charge is a huge issue compared to simply refilling a tank - charg…
Time to charge is not a huge issue, you can simply replace the battery for a full one. Tesla has an automated battery swap station that can replace one in 90 seconds.
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-battery...
Basically, if a battery swap facility exists and has done it on at least one car, then all cars in the fleet capable of this battery swap can enjoy the extra tax credits, even though said facility is not open for actual use and has no plans to employ swapping on the other vehicles.
Re: Tesla will not be able to scale its manufacturing capacity
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Model X has 250 mile range. But you think it's "largely true" that electric cars have a range problem? There are ~600 charging stations worldwide, and that's increasing to 1200 during 2016. But you think it's "largely true" that there's no charging infrastructure?
Not the person you're responding to, but yes and yes. 600 charging stations worldwide ? That's worse than I thought. I'm traveling across country as we speak (I live in an RV). I've seen one electric car charging option in the past few weeks...I've filled up over a dozen times in that period. Realistically speaking, you cannot take an electric car on vacation. That doesn't mean I don't love electric cars (I even held…
Re: Tesla will not be able to scale its manufacturing capacity
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
What are =you= talking about? Tesla's manufacturing capabilities are far more modern and informed by Silicon Valley. Electronic cars (outside the Model X) have far fewer parts and are substantially less complex than combustion engine. Tesla has =far= better software development capabilities which is becoming much more important. Tesla has a much simpler distribution network and much closer contact with users. etc, et…
Tesla has one facility, which is definitely state of the art, and has some of the largest automobile manufacturing robots in the world... on the other hand toyota has about 40-70 plants of varying level of technological advancement... its quite a range because some are only operated by toyota not owned... there more recently opened factories such is the one in Mississippi are pretty much universally accepted amongst…
Your argument is basically "the small company is small". So what? Do you propose that business can work in some other way? How else would you propose that it works?
Re: Tesla will not be able to scale its manufacturing capacity
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That actually is anecdotal evidence. If it happened ONCE its anecdotal evidence. If it happens repeatedly to different reporters around the world? That's a statistic. The Model S drive unit is not reliable. Period. It doesn't matter how "simple" an electric motor theoretically is, in practice, the Model S motor has clear drive unit issues. > Anyway, the Model S was explicitly the stepping stone project to get to th…
No, it's still anecdotal evidence unless you actually have a meaningful statistic gathered through scientific inquiry. If you have just heard several people complain about failures, that's anecdotal evidence. After all, that is precisely the definition of "anecdotal evidence."
http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt...
> As part of our Annual Auto Reliability Survey, we received about 1,400 survey responses from Model S owners who chronicled an array of detailed and complicated maladies.
I'm not kidding when I'm saying this "isn't anecdotal" anymore. Over a THOUSAND reports have come in, and the consensus is that Tesla is NOT reliable.