Classism in America • Hacker News Board

Re: Classism in America

#311

Post by notlisted » Thu, Apr 07, 2016, 3:01 PM UTC

jholman wrote: post #288

notlisted wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, to me it was an indicator of her age (ie when she started using the Internet). I have the same reaction to articles on blogger. I associate Medium with minimalist know-it-all bearded fixie hipster programmers (under 35). :p Still better then the SV(u)btle peeps (but less exclusive, by invitation only peeps, let's keep it classy!).

I agree with you (strongly about medium, though I disagree about blogger). Or, to put it in terms more related to the article... Medium is nouveau riche, LJ is authentic aristocracy. If you think Medium is "nice middle-class", it means you're lower-middle-class. PS: I can't tell if I'm kidding or not. PPS: what does it say about my class that I thought these post-scripts are a good idea?

Correct insertion of the extra P tells me so much about you. This whole social class stuff is quite funny when you start thinking about it. I'm terribly judgmental it seems...

Re: Classism in America

#312

Post by turar » Thu, Apr 07, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

turar wrote: post #240

A couple of related posts that I found very interesting and are probably worth sharing here: A reddit discussion on bullshitting and class: http://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1h3j08/generatio... with a link to this piece: http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2013/06/my-public-s...

Just realized the second link is broken and can't edit the original comment. Fixed link: http://bright-green.org/2013/06/25/my-public-school-days-the...

Re: Classism in America

#313

Post by wcummings » Thu, Apr 07, 2016, 3:38 PM UTC

Intermernet wrote: post #226

wcummings wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>respect that soldiers aren't actually responsible for said wars, and are doing a horrible job in horrible circumstances. This doesn't really hold up, there are more dangerous jobs than "soldier" and they get no respect. No holidays. No parades. No ceremony. Militarism is a cult.

Militarism is a cult, and there are worse jobs, however blaming the soldiers for wars doesn't solve the problem. It's like blaming bank managers for the state of the economy. Idealistically, if you could convince all of the soldiers on both sides to not fight, then you stop the wars, but realistically you need to convince the populations and leaders of the states they are fighting on behalf of that war is a bad idea…

I didn't mean to say anyone should blame the soldiers, just that we shouldn't glorify soldiers and the military.

>This cult is propagated by civilians more than soldiers.

Exactly! I think we're in agreement.

Re: Classism in America

#314

Post by PaulHoule » Thu, Apr 07, 2016, 3:48 PM UTC

B1FF_PSUVM wrote: post #126

PaulHoule wrote: post #2

Social class is astonishingly multidimensional as pointed out in the works of C. Wright Mills (Power Elite), Paul Fussel (Class), Tom Wolfe (The Pump House Gang), etc. In my extended family there are no college professors, but a lot of cops, even a lot of women that are cops. (There are some accountants, but they are forensic accountants ;-) When I get stopped by the cops I don't worry, they like my attitude, they wi…

> Paul Fussel (Class) > family there are no college professors, Fussel's Class was sort of OK, but then he went on a wish-fulfillment tripe dump, whereupon he wished college professors like himself to be above it all. Hardy har har, sure, sure ...

Class is probably Fussel's hardest book to rip up. Look at Muscle, the book he ghost wrote for his son to find out what he really thinks.

To be fair when a graduate student I knew had an absentee PhD supervisor and a nervous breakdown and tried the "experiment" of not showing up for work and seeing how long it took for the paychecks to stop, the "experiment" strung on for most of a year until his dad realized he had no idea how to get in touch with his son, called up the department, and they called me up.

He had managed department failing department stores for decades and he thought our college town was a "dump" because it didn't have a Nordstrom's.

The social position of the college professor has changed a lot since Fussel's generation. Up until 1970 or so it was a path of upward social mobility, but a slowdown of tenure track hiring, social changes that doubled the number of professor's kids that could be recruited (counterbalanced enough by massive imports of male graduate students from hyperpatriarchical cultures to not threaten feminoid narriatives) mean it is no longer a path to social mobility, unless you mean trading a life of baking cookies at an organic cafe 9-5 to working 80 hours a week at 5 different colleges spread out over 200 miles while eating off food stamps...

Re: Classism in America

#315

Post by phaemon » Thu, Apr 07, 2016, 4:30 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #82

I haven't finished the article yet, but one thing that strikes me is the flamboyant use of vocabulary. Given the topic, I'm not sure whether it's just a peculiarity of the author, an attempt to tailor the reception of the piece with regard to specific audiences, a slight trolling or the reader, or a combination thereof. For example, early on we get "impecunious" and "shibboleths", followed up shortly afterwards with…

If you're talking about inclusion and exclusion from any particular groups, you're going to talk about "shibboleths". It's quite a common term and no more flamboyant than talking about "MathML" or "hyperlinks" on HN.

Or Shibboleth, of course. I'd actually expect quite a few folk here to know the word from the SSO solution.

Re: Classism in America

#316

Post by henrikschroder » Thu, Apr 07, 2016, 4:32 PM UTC

norea-armozel wrote: post #79

kelukelugames wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel programmers have made it econimically. I know a large number of devs in their 30s who make over 200k a year. But we haven't climbed the social ladder as well. Maybe that follows the money.

Yep, that's definitely my situation in life. Still working class despite the salary. It's like the areas that are suppose to be open to me seem hostile to my mere presence. I'm not sure if it's the way I walk, talk, act, or whatever. Just the look on certain people's faces really tell me that I'm not welcomed or "one of them" without a single word said on the matter. It's so weird being aware of it now after all thes…

Again, from the article:

> It is a common misconception that the primary obstacle to being in a much higher class is money to afford the things by which one performs that class. The limiting factor is not money, it is this: it is impossible to join a culture the ways of which you know nothing. You may come by money, but the ignorance of how to use it to perform that higher class will keep you out as adamantly as if there were a wall built around it.

So learn from this. Learn how to perform as upper middle class. Learn to radiate more confidence, try to look like you belong. If you look like a trespasser, if for a moment you look like you cannot believe you would end up in a place like this, you're exposed as not "one of us".

Re: Classism in America

#317

Post by sn9 » Thu, Apr 07, 2016, 5:13 PM UTC

kough wrote: post #157

skrjabin wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is obviously self-aware and this is precisely what makes it frustrating. Nearly every point is obfuscated through ornamentation, or broken up into parenthetical statements like a jigsaw puzzle. The entire article could be summarized in a concise paragraph with minimal loss of meaning. It's just pretension.

This writing style is itself a performance of Rationalist culture. Read anything by The Last Psychiatrist or Scott Alexander or Eliezer Yudkowsky for comparison.

I actually first read this through a link on one of Scott's articles a few months ago.

Re: Classism in America

#318

Post by kbenson » Thu, Apr 07, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

phaemon wrote: post #315

kbenson wrote: post #82

I haven't finished the article yet, but one thing that strikes me is the flamboyant use of vocabulary. Given the topic, I'm not sure whether it's just a peculiarity of the author, an attempt to tailor the reception of the piece with regard to specific audiences, a slight trolling or the reader, or a combination thereof. For example, early on we get "impecunious" and "shibboleths", followed up shortly afterwards with…

If you're talking about inclusion and exclusion from any particular groups, you're going to talk about "shibboleths". It's quite a common term and no more flamboyant than talking about "MathML" or "hyperlinks" on HN. Or Shibboleth, of course. I'd actually expect quite a few folk here to know the word from the SSO solution.

I don't know, I'm not sure I've ever encountered it before. Since it's rooted in Hebrew, perhaps it has to do with exposure to Jewish vulture, or people that express Jewish culture? Certain Hebrew words have become common in American culture (I would say due to long history of excellent Jewish comedians, from Brooks and Allen to Seinfeld), but others are more esoteric (to my view).

Of course, it's entirely possible it's just my experience, I don't want the above to be taken as me discounting that possibility. That's just how it looks from my perspective with the input I've gotten so far.

Re: Classism in America

#319

Post by blakeyrat » Thu, Apr 07, 2016, 5:54 PM UTC

adambard wrote: post #205

blakeyrat wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason I even live within commuting distance of a large city is because that's where the only good-paying tech jobs are. If I had been a, say, banker or a mechanic or a plumber I'd be able to work in any town in the country, but no, dumb me had to become a computer programmer. If I could participate in this career/industry from a smaller town, you bet your butt I'd do it in a second.

Do you realize that ours is one of the few jobs that can be conducted entirely remotely? Perhaps the remote-work train is destined to derail at some point in the future, but at the moment it's totally possible to find work that lets you live anywhere there's available internet.

Yes; but I don't want to work remotely. I want to work in an office with colleagues. I just don't want to have to commute to the center of a large city to do it.

My father was a school board administrator. He was able to make good money, work in an office with colleagues, and still had the ability to live in practically every town in the US. School boards are everywhere. Tech companies are only in the largest cities.

It's really frustrating.

Re: Classism in America

#320

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 07, 2016, 5:59 PM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #100

arcanus wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. The subtle differences between the USA and Europe on this subject are quite interesting. Another one is that in the USA, being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative and instantly implies you are rich, spoiled and not likely to be a hard worker, if you work at all.

> being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative That's also fascinating, because in the US, wanting to be rich is seen as a very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. And where I'm from, wanting to be rich is seen as an ugly thing, the only socially acceptable ways to be rich is to win the lottery or be a spo…

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