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Classism in America

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Re: Classism in America

#51

Post by pjc50 »

wil421 wrote: post #30
dboreham wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much everyone in or from Scotland (true or not) does this to some degree.

For me, the Scottish accent is the hardest of the English accents for me to understand. I work with English speakers from New Zealand/Australia and India to the UK/Ireland. English and Scottish sayings/slang are my favorite. Southerns have some good sayings but they are not as enjoyable for me to hear, maybe because I used to them.

I remember having to interpret between an Ulsterman and an Afrikaaner, both of whom were nominally speaking English but to mutual incomprehension.

Re: Classism in America

#52

Post by ska »

nxzero wrote: post #45
ska wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, it would be foolish to say all people, even of a given type, think the same. This statement doesn't make a lot of sense to me. One of the main purposes of training for many jobs (lawyers, physicists, police, etc.) is explicitly to modify the mental model you apply to the world.

Point is there are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions. While I'd agree that mental induction into a field does happen, that unlike in many fields, law enforcement has a very primal nature, and many that take on this domain are predoposed to it; within nature, the domain would be the relationship between predators and their prey.

I don't think you are articulating your point very well, and the last bit seems to be veering towards ev-psych nonsense.

Can you clarify what you are trying to say?

Re: Classism in America

#53

Post by jff »

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #47
zeveb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c. It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.

That's because there is often a social (status signaling) benefit to disparaging Southerners in many parts of the US. Particularly in coastal, urban areas.

Don't forget "flyover states", to be uttered in the same tone of disgust as "southerner"!

Re: Classism in America

#54

Post by SEJeff »

falsestprophet wrote: post #33
SEJeff wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also being from the south (Kentucky, so not as far south perhaps), I see this as well. My approach is actually the inverse. Like racism or really any form of bigotry, I call it out when I see it and make it known this is _not_ ok. Very few HR departments are ok with bigotry of this sort. You shouldn't have to be ashamed of how you sound or where you're from. I do massively agree with you regarding people thinking sou…

"A cabbie asked me if I supported Donald Trump and told he we was surprised I didn't. He told me all Americans supported Trump. So I asked him if he was an IRA thug/terrorist, to which he naturally said no." It's hardly reasonable to compare being a member of a terrorist organization to supporting the leading candidate of one of two major parties. Consider just the sheer effort of participating in terrorism is far gr…

Well I was pointing out his logical fallacy in assuming I supported someone because of where I was from. That is a ridiculous assumption, so I made an equally ridiculous one, which he immediately understood. Then we got on really well.

Re: Classism in America

#55

Post by hoorayimhelping »

zeveb wrote: post #34
JPKab wrote: post #11

Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable. The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers h…

It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c. It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.

When I moved to New York City after living in Florida and North Carolina, I was really surprised at the blatant bigotry here. I've had people respected in this industry for their open mindedness look at me without irony and ask me if it's really as bad as everyone "down there" calling everyone else ... (looks around nervously) ... the N-word.

Todd Barry has a great bit on this (language might be offensive to some) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfNnM2aYsWo

Re: Classism in America

#56

Post by wcummings »

RodericDay wrote: post #16

It's a bit disturbing to me how enthusiastically the SlaterStarCodex crowd latches onto this "fuck you, got mine" essay, gushing with praise and admiration about telling it like it is. The entire thing is a rationalization for the thinking illustrated in these quotes: > I feel the need for a disclaimer of sorts. I am writing about class and some of the injustices of classism, but I do not particularly pretend to posi…

>No, I mean closer to Segregation

lolwut

Re: Classism in America

#57

Post by learc83 »

apalmer wrote: post #29

Article raises an interesting point... I think the divide is valid between social class and economic class, however i will say it is much more fluid in US than in most other countries both developed countries like UK and developing countries like say India. I think the reason is because to the US point of view the ultimate social goal is financial success. Next interesting point, I think a lot of the outrage with Don…

George W. Bush played up the good ole boy from Texas image. Even though he was from a wealthy East Coast family and went to Yale.

He was definitely trying to project an image of being from a lower social class, and he played to issues that lower social classes were more likely to support.

Re: Classism in America

#58

Post by PhasmaFelis »

falsestprophet wrote: post #33
SEJeff wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also being from the south (Kentucky, so not as far south perhaps), I see this as well. My approach is actually the inverse. Like racism or really any form of bigotry, I call it out when I see it and make it known this is _not_ ok. Very few HR departments are ok with bigotry of this sort. You shouldn't have to be ashamed of how you sound or where you're from. I do massively agree with you regarding people thinking sou…

"A cabbie asked me if I supported Donald Trump and told he we was surprised I didn't. He told me all Americans supported Trump. So I asked him if he was an IRA thug/terrorist, to which he naturally said no." It's hardly reasonable to compare being a member of a terrorist organization to supporting the leading candidate of one of two major parties. Consider just the sheer effort of participating in terrorism is far gr…

Can you come up with a better analogy on the spot that would have worked in that situation?

SEJeff obviously isn't saying that Trump support and IRA support are exactly equivalent. He's saying they're both subgroups in a larger population that outsiders stereotype as representing the entire population, to the disgust of many of the people stereotyped. It's an excellent analogy because it references a situation that's intimately familiar to the person he's speaking to.

Re: Classism in America

#59

Post by wcummings »

Intermernet wrote: post #8
hyperliner wrote: post #3

This is a very good article. In America, there is also an example where we "build up" the social class of some segment to compensate for our self-centered guilt. Take the example of the military service. The vast majority of people would rather be at the mall and let someone else fight and die for the country. But the "I support our troops" bumper sticker is everywhere, or maybe they sent ten bucks to Fisher House or…

The troops example is a tricky one. Many people disagree with war as a way to solve problems, but respect that soldiers aren't actually responsible for said wars, and are doing a horrible job in horrible circumstances. Thus you can support the troops, but deplore the actions of those who caused them to be there in the first case. I do agree that volunteering at a veteran's hospital would be a perfect way to contribut…

>respect that soldiers aren't actually responsible for said wars, and are doing a horrible job in horrible circumstances.

This doesn't really hold up, there are more dangerous jobs than "soldier" and they get no respect. No holidays. No parades. No ceremony.

Militarism is a cult.

Re: Classism in America

#60

Post by haberman »

maldusiecle wrote: post #22
RodericDay wrote: post #16

It's a bit disturbing to me how enthusiastically the SlaterStarCodex crowd latches onto this "fuck you, got mine" essay, gushing with praise and admiration about telling it like it is. The entire thing is a rationalization for the thinking illustrated in these quotes: > I feel the need for a disclaimer of sorts. I am writing about class and some of the injustices of classism, but I do not particularly pretend to posi…

It's a common attitude in a lot of LessWrong-adjacent blogs: analyze some complex phenomenon that the social sciences have studied in depth, but act as if no one has ever thought of it before. So when class comes up, it's better to think of in the terms of some rando blogger, not (for instance) Bourdieu or Weber. And then when you get absurd results, it proves your originality and willingness to look past conventiona…

Bourdieu and Weber are "rando bloggers" compared to Marx, perhaps we should write them off too?
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