Classism in America • Hacker News Board

Re: Classism in America

#41

Post by zeveb » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 3:26 PM UTC

apalmer wrote: post #36

zeveb wrote: post #32

Very interesting thought, that colleges' purpose is to acculturate one into a certain culture. That would explain why collegiate athletics are so important: because people of a particular college's culture place importance on chasing after balls on grassy fields, it's important for colleges to acculturate their students to watching people chase after balls on grassy fields. I'm not saying that sarcastically — as much…

while your points are true, its kind of the whole point of the article is 'economic' (and of course race) are first-order approximations of 'social' class but they are NOT the same thing, only approximately overlapping. Pretty much the whole point of the article.

Which is why it's so odd that she doesn't want to discuss race, which like economic class is merely a first-order approximation of social class.

In general, of course, I find the idea of announcing 'derailing' topics to be ridiculous, meaning something like, 'here are my thoughts on a topic: you are free to talk about your thoughts in these related areas, but not those related areas, because I don't want you to, and will consider you rude.' It feels childish to me.

Re: Classism in America

#42

Post by llull » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 3:27 PM UTC

The truth of the essay is illustrated by studies that show lower social mobility over longer generational windows, i.e. ones grandfather's income quintile is a better predictor of ones owns than ones fathers's. The intangible cultural inheritance of social class is more lasting than fluctuations in material wealth.

Re: Classism in America

#43

Post by tclmeelmo » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 3:27 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #32

Very interesting thought, that colleges' purpose is to acculturate one into a certain culture. That would explain why collegiate athletics are so important: because people of a particular college's culture place importance on chasing after balls on grassy fields, it's important for colleges to acculturate their students to watching people chase after balls on grassy fields. I'm not saying that sarcastically — as much…

> > The ban on smoking in restaurants – which, let me be clear, I am wildly in favor of, being someone who can't patronize a business with cigarette smoking in it

> Can't? Given that tobacco smoke contains no allergens, methinks the mot juste would be 'won't.'

I cannot speak for the author, but my asthma is severe enough that indoor cigarette smoke (or being in the home of a smoker) is sufficient to cause discomfort.

Re: Classism in America

#44

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 3:28 PM UTC

Geography plays a huge role in determining social classes and the perceptions of them. It also influences spending habits.[1]

In New York, for example, it has been shown that people across the income spectrum there will pay more than the national average for shoes and watches. New York is very wealthy and urban, so you are always walking and being seen in your shoes (and checking the time) and it confers a sense of class. The more people think about the quality of their footwear, the more they will be concerned with keeping up appearances. Even poor New Yorkers spend a higher part of their income on shoes than most poor Americans.

Contrast this with, say, San Francisco. The shaggy-looking dude in jeans and a Hard Rock Cafe t-shirt could be a multimillionaire, you'd never know. But it is more likely than not that the given individual is physically fit. It's always bikini season in California, whereas New York's long and snowy winters allow for big meals and bigger coats. The more fit people you encounter, the more you will be concerned with your and other's fitness, because it is more readily on your mind. ("It's warm and sunny all year round and you don't even jog or bike? Get off your ass."). Consequently, the Bay Area sees a disproportionate amount of income spent on health clubs.

[1] The New York Times had an excellent Op-Ed from a few years back, called: "What People Buy Where" http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/14/opinion/sunday/what-peo...

Re: Classism in America

#45

Post by nxzero » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 3:29 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #26

nxzero wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think it's very possible that you believe law enforcement thinks about the world differently than someone trying to avoid law enforcement. My understanding is that they share the same mental model of the world on average; which is not a critical view of either, just what I've heard from people that know much, much more about how different types of people think than me. To be clear, it would be foolish to say all peop…

To be clear, it would be foolish to say all people, even of a given type, think the same. This statement doesn't make a lot of sense to me. One of the main purposes of training for many jobs (lawyers, physicists, police, etc.) is explicitly to modify the mental model you apply to the world.

Point is there are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions. While I'd agree that mental induction into a field does happen, that unlike in many fields, law enforcement has a very primal nature, and many that take on this domain are predoposed to it; within nature, the domain would be the relationship between predators and their prey.

Re: Classism in America

#46

Post by convexfunction » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 3:30 PM UTC

RodericDay wrote: post #38

convexfunction wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that "the Left" engages in "Orwellian double-think" with regards to class, is also pretty puzzling. Heard any jokes or insults about Southerners lately? "Trump voters"? Etc. Which isn't to say that anyone who identifies with leftism is doomed to infinite self-deception with regard to social class, but, most people would benefit from some reflection on how they feel about which groups of people and why.

"John Oliver"-left (which is to say, center), may be cracking low-quality Trump-voter jokes. "Jacobin Magazine"-left, which has a better claim to the mainstream title imo, is all about publicizing interesting and charitable analyses of the phenomenon. edit: Down-voted into a post-freeze (again). Reply: Yeah, it's a hairy topic. However, the author states that they had trouble finding left-leaning "books and other dis…

Yeah, the overloading on "left" is definitely an issue here. I agree the Jacobin types are much more likely to have some self-awareness here (though I've unfortunately met a cluster of counterexamples).

Re: Classism in America

#47

Post by rgrieselhuber » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 3:37 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #34

JPKab wrote: post #11

Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable. The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers h…

It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c. It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.

That's because there is often a social (status signaling) benefit to disparaging Southerners in many parts of the US. Particularly in coastal, urban areas.

Re: Classism in America

#48

Post by pjc50 » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 3:43 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #32

Very interesting thought, that colleges' purpose is to acculturate one into a certain culture. That would explain why collegiate athletics are so important: because people of a particular college's culture place importance on chasing after balls on grassy fields, it's important for colleges to acculturate their students to watching people chase after balls on grassy fields. I'm not saying that sarcastically — as much…

no allergens

Nightshade allergy includes tobacco.

Re: Classism in America

#49

Post by gragas » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 3:44 PM UTC

>disproportionately impact the impecunious – the almost-certain forthcoming hike in T fares looms large in my anxieties right now – but I am a professional with an advanced degree and possession of the shibboleths of the professional class

This actually hurt to read. It sounds like an excerpt from a Nabokov novel.

(Don't get me wrong, Nabokov is a fantastic writer. But there is a time and place for writing like that, and this is not one of them.)

Re: Classism in America

#50

Post by maxerickson » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 3:44 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #41

apalmer wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while your points are true, its kind of the whole point of the article is 'economic' (and of course race) are first-order approximations of 'social' class but they are NOT the same thing, only approximately overlapping. Pretty much the whole point of the article.

Which is why it's so odd that she doesn't want to discuss race, which like economic class is merely a first-order approximation of social class. In general, of course, I find the idea of announcing 'derailing' topics to be ridiculous, meaning something like, 'here are my thoughts on a topic: you are free to talk about your thoughts in these related areas, but not those related areas, because I don't want you to, and…

So why not elucidate on the themes of the essay, explaining how they play out racially? This will nicely illustrate that it is a mistake to announce derailing topics.

All you've done is complain about it (i.e., derail).