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Classism in America

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Re: Classism in America

#91

Post by brational »

norea-armozel wrote: post #75

I think the question of social class applies to my situation quite well considering that despite the fact that I'm a programmer and have a degree in computer science I honestly don't fit in well with people who would be described as middle class. Working class still seems to apply to me despite my salary and job.

This is widely true in a lot of other engineering disciplines, especially those that are more hands-on. Anecdotally, in certain parts of the country this is why engineers (think mechanical, civil, etc) are viewed a large step below "true white collar management" types.

Re: Classism in America

#92

Post by rgrieselhuber »

jff wrote: post #53
rgrieselhuber wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because there is often a social (status signaling) benefit to disparaging Southerners in many parts of the US. Particularly in coastal, urban areas.

Don't forget "flyover states", to be uttered in the same tone of disgust as "southerner"!

Yup, same deal. The city dwellers always despise the rural folk they depend on.

Re: Classism in America

#93

Post by arcanus »

henrikschroder wrote: post #89

Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. To me, the separation of economic class and social class is clearer than to the average American. But, the same rules of "invisibility" apply where I'm from. Whenever I've talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong to, they are completely clueless. They don't know they belong to i…

> Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money.

The subtle differences between the USA and Europe on this subject are quite interesting. Another one is that in the USA, being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative and instantly implies you are rich, spoiled and not likely to be a hard worker, if you work at all.

Re: Classism in America

#94

Post by brational »

learc83 wrote: post #57
apalmer wrote: post #29

Article raises an interesting point... I think the divide is valid between social class and economic class, however i will say it is much more fluid in US than in most other countries both developed countries like UK and developing countries like say India. I think the reason is because to the US point of view the ultimate social goal is financial success. Next interesting point, I think a lot of the outrage with Don…

George W. Bush played up the good ole boy from Texas image. Even though he was from a wealthy East Coast family and went to Yale. He was definitely trying to project an image of being from a lower social class, and he played to issues that lower social classes were more likely to support.

But the difference is that he still did whatever the wealthy republicans wanted too.

Re: Classism in America

#95

Post by AnimalMuppet »

secstate wrote: post #10
hyperliner wrote: post #3

This is a very good article. In America, there is also an example where we "build up" the social class of some segment to compensate for our self-centered guilt. Take the example of the military service. The vast majority of people would rather be at the mall and let someone else fight and die for the country. But the "I support our troops" bumper sticker is everywhere, or maybe they sent ten bucks to Fisher House or…

When I was a teenager I thought charity absent asceticism was pathetic. Why give the homeless guy your pocket change when you can afford to give him $20 for dinner? Why donate to the fire department, when you could make time in your life to volunteer for the fire department? (I live in a small New England town where volunteer depts are the norm.) Compensating for self-centered guilt is not evil or virtuous. Life is n…

> But the conclusion that we should all feel guilty for covering up our guilt with social class worship is not terribly productive.

I didn't think that was the conclusion at all.

Re: Classism in America

#96

Post by [deleted] »

PaulHoule wrote: post #81
nxzero wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you responding to my comment? If so, unclear what race has to do with my comment, or for that matter, the topic.

It's a clear case where there is a gap between a community segment and the police and also my original comment was about my own experience of what seems to be "hyper white privilege" in terms of grooving along abnormally well with the cops.

[deleted]

Re: Classism in America

#97

Post by ska »

nxzero wrote: post #64
ska wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you are articulating your point very well, and the last bit seems to be veering towards ev-psych nonsense. Can you clarify what you are trying to say?

Happy to do so, please explicitly state a question, refrain from the tone you've taken, and state what if any experience you have on the topic.

Honestly didn't mean to have a "tone" - unless you mean my comment about evolutionary psychology, which is just balderdash in general.

Anyway, I can't really see the connection you trying to make, are you saying that something innate to (some of) the people who choose policing as a career overrides their training? Or that police training is in some particular way unsuccessful in modifying mental models?

Re: Classism in America

#98

Post by SudoNhim »

zeveb wrote: post #32

Very interesting thought, that colleges' purpose is to acculturate one into a certain culture. That would explain why collegiate athletics are so important: because people of a particular college's culture place importance on chasing after balls on grassy fields, it's important for colleges to acculturate their students to watching people chase after balls on grassy fields. I'm not saying that sarcastically — as much…

> That's precisely the problem with race in America: race is a decent first-order approximation of class, with all the bad that entails.

Not really. I mean in my state (WA), 48% of people below the poverty line are white, 18% are hispanic, 14% are asian, 14% are black. Sure some approximations of some classes are heavily involved with race, but if you're discussing class dynamics in general race isn't a necessary distinction.

> If we could address that head-on, if people didn't automatically assume that others of the same race are 'like them' and others of a different race are 'unlike them,' and not have those things be true, then racism would be a thing of the past...

Except that humans can't ignore race. The feel-good stories we tell each other about how we are naturally colorblind and taught to be racist, about how racism is an unnatural malignant artifact in our culture, are just that; stories. In reality children will show a strong preference for members of their own race by age 3, and it's not something we can just disappear.

Re: Classism in America

#99

Post by JustSomeNobody »

zeveb wrote: post #34
JPKab wrote: post #11

Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable. The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers h…

It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c. It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.

Exactly. As a southerner, I have an accent, but I also don't answer important questions fast. IOW, I pause a beat to collect my thoughts. People tend to think this too is a sign of "stupid". Really, it's just I don't like to be wrong. I'd rather be slow up front and be right, than fast up front and be wrong. However, our development culture tends to think everything needs to happen as fast as possible (the whole twitter in a weekend meme).

Re: Classism in America

#100

Post by henrikschroder »

arcanus wrote: post #93
henrikschroder wrote: post #89

Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. To me, the separation of economic class and social class is clearer than to the average American. But, the same rules of "invisibility" apply where I'm from. Whenever I've talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong to, they are completely clueless. They don't know they belong to i…

> Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. The subtle differences between the USA and Europe on this subject are quite interesting. Another one is that in the USA, being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative and instantly implies you are rich, spoiled and not likely to be a hard worker, if you work at all.

> being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative

That's also fascinating, because in the US, wanting to be rich is seen as a very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious.

And where I'm from, wanting to be rich is seen as an ugly thing, the only socially acceptable ways to be rich is to win the lottery or be a sports champion. Then it's perfectly fine, but should you actually earn your money then that's automatically suspect and you're labelled a Bad Person.

I have friends who are in the IT industry, making good money, and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make.

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