Why we should fear a cashless world • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#211

Post by nunyabuizness » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:15 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #207

yason wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skipping taxes and using cash is only a problem if it's too widespread and the government really has genuine trouble collecting money even for the most basic needs of the society. Luckily, using cash to evade taxes is practically only possible for small entrepreneurs who can manage maintaining both the real income flow and the official income flow, and these people are also those who benefit from it the most. It's th…

The downside is not simply in the value of the missed taxes; it's the fact that the best business is now determined by tax evasion capability . Instead of "the most dominant market players are the ones with the best products", we get "the most dominant market players are the ones who have some combined aptitude in product value and tax evasion". That is, some resources are wastefully diverted to tax evasion instead o…

Ok, so that gives us two options:

1) make taxes impossible to avoid. Problem: tax code is written not by the few tax-evading small businesses, but by the many tax-evading large businesses, who won't be spending less on getting loophole-filled laws written. So this plan won't work.

2) force people to pay less taxes, such that they cost of evading is higher than the cost of paying them.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#212

Post by SilasX » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:20 PM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #129

tgb wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this game-able by buying lots of things for a penny each from your own store, that kind of thing?

Somewhat but I imagine you'd risk getting caught =) One thing I wonder is if you have an increased likelihood of winning if you buy more. Does a $1 purchase give you the same chance to win $100 as a $20 purchase? I don't really know. Over 100 receipts you usually win like $5

Maybe they could make each receipt give you a block of numbers in proportion to how much you spent.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#213

Post by Lawtonfogle » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:23 PM UTC

cmurf wrote: post #131

jqm wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roads and bridges are fine. 700 hammers for the military maybe not. I worked as project manager for a contractor doing public works at one point. The government (at least in the US and probably everywhere) wastes a staggering amount of money. Not saying the government doesn't need funding. They do. But they could certainly do a lot more with less.

They need better internal auditors. If you just cut their budget alone, it doesn't decrease waste or fraud. To change the percentage of waste requires accountability for wasting.

And the accountability ends up causing waste. A basic example I've given before is when you can't go and buy the cheapest thing because you have to prove it is the cheapest thing, which you can't do without a review (because people abused this is the past). The end result is that the cost to approve the cheapest option is so high you stick with a more expensive option that is overall worse, but currently considered the best.

Imagine a programmer who has to document what they do every quarter hour of their work day to ensure accountability to auditors looking to reduce waste. They end up wasting more time documenting what they do than you end up saving.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#214

Post by tamana » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:47 PM UTC

LordKano wrote: post #182

silvestrov wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tax rate is too high It's not that simple. Scandinavia has a higher tax rate than Italy (and Russia), but much less tax evasion.

"Too high" is not an objective measure. If the people of Scandinavia feel that what they're getting in return is worth it, they'll pay the taxes. People in Scandinavian countries have a higher amount of trust in their governments too. I'm sure that has a lot to with it. Someone who believes that their tax money is going to be used for the legitimate(In his or her mind) needs of society has a greater incentive to pay…

That's wishful thinking. It's really matter of how the culture has evolved.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#215

Post by ChuckMcM » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:51 PM UTC

LordKano wrote: post #182

silvestrov wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tax rate is too high It's not that simple. Scandinavia has a higher tax rate than Italy (and Russia), but much less tax evasion.

"Too high" is not an objective measure. If the people of Scandinavia feel that what they're getting in return is worth it, they'll pay the taxes. People in Scandinavian countries have a higher amount of trust in their governments too. I'm sure that has a lot to with it. Someone who believes that their tax money is going to be used for the legitimate(In his or her mind) needs of society has a greater incentive to pay…

Exactly this, trust. People give money to churches willingly when they trust the Church will use those funds to do good work. People pay taxes willingly when they see that they are being spent on things that help the community.

When that trust erodes, through government sinecures and throwing too much money at a brother-in-law's construction firm to build infrastructure, etc. Then people are unwilling to fund that activity and limit their tax payments as much as they can. And when they really lose faith as they did in Greece it seems, well not paying taxes seems to be more common than paying taxes and the whole thing breaks down.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#216

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 8:56 PM UTC

rsync wrote: post #116

clarkmoody wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the tried-and-true roads & bridges argument. No, I don't believe the government is necessary to do those things. But if you look at actual government spending, these sorts of infrastructure projects are dwarfed by things like military spending, which could use a reduction.

"No, I don't believe the government is necessary to do those things." I live on a very long (two miles) private road that I jointly build and maintain with an association, etc. There is no government role whatsoever, and we even have bridges. So it would appear that my experience validates your libertarian fantasy world. Look - we're actually doing it! I've got sour news for you. Even a wealthy, well educated collect…

[deleted]

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#217

Post by JoeAltmaier » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 9:05 PM UTC

xixi77 wrote: post #198

nmrm2 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent said METERS, not feet. So parent is saying maybe 8mil for a mile. Not insane to assume low volume work in a presumably remote area will be double or triple the price that the entire state of Florida can get. Especially for a previously unpaved roadway with bridges that probably also needs widening, leveling, etc. That isn't patch work cleaning up existing paved road... The number is high but not unfathomably s…

As has been said, road paving is a commodity business, so the reason why this particular road might be that expensive is probably that it's a remote road on difficult terrain. Which raises the question: should this very expensive road, which is primarily used by members of this specific and admittedly wealthy community, be subsidized by the rest of (relatively) poor taxpayers of that state?

Yes. That's called infrastructure. Whenever America has 'subsidized' infrastructure, the nation has seen many fold return. Whether it was rural electrification, or secondary roads, or rural mail delivery, having it a given for everybody means anybody can assume a certain level of service. Commerce thrives on that.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#218

Post by EdSharkey » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 9:16 PM UTC

newjersey wrote: post #174

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily, you just need the internal auditors to have independence and the right incentives. And actually-enforced penalties for individuals in government who stonewall the auditors because they know an honest auditor would want to reduce their budget.

Also I absolutely hate how people think cutting government income is a good way to cut wasteful spending because it is immediately obvious it doesn't work. It can't work. We cheered when that scumbag Reagan talked about starving the beast. It was clear that even George HW Bush, Reagan's running mate knew it was a stupid idea. The problem that neocons won't talk about is that we don't have a single preferential way of…

"we don't have a single preferential way of allocating budget." That's a very charitable way of saying there are no priorities in Washington and there never will be.

I don't mind discussions of cutting the federal government drastically even with overblown threats of riots and unrest. Why continue to prop up a federal system that was never designed to scale up to the size it is and that is out of control? It can't be fixed by any amount of tinkering so just let it collapse back to the original limited powers concept.

U.S. state and local governments do a much better job spending taxpayer money, just revert all these poorly run federal agencies and programs back to the state level.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#219

Post by scrupulusalbion » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 9:21 PM UTC

carlob wrote: post #53

Here in Italy the big issue is that many business will just not declare cash transactions. It's pretty common not to be given a receipt when buying a coffee and often when you visit a doctor they'll say: do you want the invoice or a discount? A couple of friends got married recently and I found out they paid over half of what the owed in cash to get pretty decent discount. So before we talk privacy and company let's…

Why is this phenomena a cost to society? By this phenomena, real prices are able to decrease, with all the concomitant benefits of having reduced expenses.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#220

Post by shwouchk » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 9:26 PM UTC

nunyabuizness wrote: post #210

rsync wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No, I don't believe the government is necessary to do those things." I live on a very long (two miles) private road that I jointly build and maintain with an association, etc. There is no government role whatsoever, and we even have bridges. So it would appear that my experience validates your libertarian fantasy world. Look - we're actually doing it! I've got sour news for you. Even a wealthy, well educated collect…

> It's very difficult and costly. We are right on the edge of success or failure in this maintenance. Further, if we were to actually pave the road (a true fantasy) it would be completely, totally unthinkable with regard to cost. Asphalt is paid for by the square foot and it isn't cheap. When you drive by a very quick section of asphalt road being resurfaced ... say 200-400 meters or something - very short ... unders…

> 3) American infrastructure was rated a D+ by the ASCE, so in what way is having government the sole provider of infrastructure a guarantee of quality?

The same thing is true in most other parts of the world (i.e. who is financially responsible for building and maintaining the roads). In general you will find that the milder the climate is, the nicer the roads are.

> 4) slightly unrelated, but do you really think we'd have the same level of urban sprawl, needing a car to get anywhere in suburbia and such a heavy reliance on fossil fuels if roads were built through market forces rather than government subsidy?

It is already mostly financed through market forces by local governments and via various use taxes (e.g. fuel tax, property tax, etc)