Why we should fear a cashless world • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#181

Post by nmrm2 » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 6:02 PM UTC

nickik wrote: post #171

blowski wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. On a global scale, the very poor are getting richer, but so are the very rich, while the middle-classes are getting (relatively) poorer. If you are middle-income (somewhere between $10K and $1M), then the probability that your children will be relatively better off than you is falling. See https://publications.credit-suisse.com/tasks/render/file/?fi... - p35 is particularly relevant in this conversation.

False. You kids might not make as much money but in realty their living standards jave grown quite a bit.

I think this is pretty debatable, at least in the US.

Being born during the middle or late-middle of the 20th century was extremely lucky if you managed to stay out of manufacturing and could put your retirement into funds that came close to matching public markets. A lot of people doubt we'll ever see that kind of economic growth in the first half of the 21st century.

Don't under-estimate the impact of three-four decades of financially comfortable retirement on "living standards".

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#182

Post by LordKano » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 6:06 PM UTC

silvestrov wrote: post #178

LordKano wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When this kind of tax evasion becomes widespread, that should be a clear indicator that the tax rate is too high. In a cashless society, it becomes possible (if not inevitable) the enforcement of that taxation will become even more onerous. $20 from grandma for your birthday? Gift tax. You and your co-workers decide to split a large lunch? Temporary incorporation tax. Your friend buys a 50 pack of DVD-Rs and you spli…

> tax rate is too high It's not that simple. Scandinavia has a higher tax rate than Italy (and Russia), but much less tax evasion.

"Too high" is not an objective measure.

If the people of Scandinavia feel that what they're getting in return is worth it, they'll pay the taxes.

People in Scandinavian countries have a higher amount of trust in their governments too. I'm sure that has a lot to with it.

Someone who believes that their tax money is going to be used for the legitimate(In his or her mind) needs of society has a greater incentive to pay them than the person who believes that their tax money is going to be used to pay kickbacks to the political allies of the people in charge.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#183

Post by sokoloff » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 6:07 PM UTC

nmrm2 wrote: post #82

gizi wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and lessen nation states' ability to combat inequality with policy Ok, one person is a great programmer making good money and another person is not interested in any of that and makes less money. I do not see any inequality here that needs to be combated with policy. One possible result of such policy would be that both will turn out to be less interested. You cannot turn the losers into winners, but you can certai…

I hope that globalization isn't inconsistent with national autonomy, especially when it comes to taxation and social policy. If these two things are inconsistent, then globalization will lose out in the long run. That would be a shame, because liberalized borders and economies -- if properly regulated -- would benefit everyone. > One possible result of such policy would be that both will turn out to be less intereste…

>Tax rates on the top 1% or 0.5% of earners could double over-night and those people...

> At some point far before the 1% [from context, presumably income] mark, wealth accumulation becomes much more about personal power and legacy than anything else.

False, IMO. 99th percentile income is about $400K gross per year (for household income). Two 40-year olds raising children, making $400K between them are technically "top 1% income", but are quite far from granting buildings to their alma mater and building monuments to themselves. They are more likely worried about college tuition, retirement savings, and healthcare than they are about whether the plaque on the front of their building should be silver or bronze.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#184

Post by galfarragem » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 6:14 PM UTC

IMO the real issue on tax evasion is not that people don't like to pay taxes. People don't like is to be obligated to give money that will be spent in ways that they don't agree.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#185

Post by a3n » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 6:18 PM UTC

carlob wrote: post #53

Here in Italy the big issue is that many business will just not declare cash transactions. It's pretty common not to be given a receipt when buying a coffee and often when you visit a doctor they'll say: do you want the invoice or a discount? A couple of friends got married recently and I found out they paid over half of what the owed in cash to get pretty decent discount. So before we talk privacy and company let's…

And what about people who are only paid under the table, and the people who employ them? I'm thinking of day laborers. Regardless of anyone's legal circumstance they need to eat; under the table work serves as a safety net, regardless of the tax issues.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#186

Post by hguant » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 6:23 PM UTC

nickik wrote: post #170

kingmanaz wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read Tacitus' writings on Germania. While the Mediterranean and Near Eastern peoples were issuing violently long-winded, and ultimately hollow, discourses on the subject of ethics, Northern peoples were holding to faithfully monogamous marriages and living in small communities in comparative peace. What the Southern peoples preached the Northern peoples lived.

Yeah lets look back to a 2000 year old mistly fantasy document that romans used to moralise their own society for our own explaitions. That seems like a great idea. Its not like that line of thought ever had bad consequences.

I'm going to treat this like a real comment instead of a sarcastic quip.

The reason we go back to '2000 year old [not sure if 'misty' or 'mostly', both work in interestingly different ways] fantasy document[s]' is because there are universal truths about the human condition. The value of a statement is not in its newness or its antiquity; it lies in the truth of the thing being said. Brashly rejecting an idea because it is old has the same merit as rejecting an idea because it came from a woman - that is to say, none.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#187

Post by rsync » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 6:37 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #120

rsync wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No, I don't believe the government is necessary to do those things." I live on a very long (two miles) private road that I jointly build and maintain with an association, etc. There is no government role whatsoever, and we even have bridges. So it would appear that my experience validates your libertarian fantasy world. Look - we're actually doing it! I've got sour news for you. Even a wealthy, well educated collect…

Hm. I understood that freeway (one of the most expensive roads in the world) was $1000 per foot. $5M per mile. I would expect asphalt to be much less. Here's a link: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/policy/costs/costs-D7.pd... Florida says 2-lane roadway is $3.3M per mile. So a few hundred feed, costing millions? Nonsense.

(parent here)

"Florida says 2-lane roadway is $3.3M per mile. So a few hundred feed, costing millions? Nonsense."

I was thinking of a stretch of highway or freeway - four lanes - when I asked the reader to "think of a stretch of road being worked on". Sorry - wasn't clear.

Also, I was measuring in meters. So, 400 meters of four-lane @ 6.6M per mile ... that's ~1.2M, give or take.

It's expensive.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#188

Post by narrator » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 6:59 PM UTC

iolothebard wrote: post #166

narrator wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing about negative interest rates is it is one of the few good reasons to buy physical gold, especially with the elimination of large denomination euro notes.

Gold is just another fiat currency, plus at a high value it's even more worthless as a currency since you'd need such minuscule amounts to trade for goods/services.

"Gold is just another fiat currency". Did you come up with that or did you read it somewhere? If you read it somewhere, I'd love to read that article.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#189

Post by hawkice » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 7:06 PM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #70

carlob wrote: post #53

Here in Italy the big issue is that many business will just not declare cash transactions. It's pretty common not to be given a receipt when buying a coffee and often when you visit a doctor they'll say: do you want the invoice or a discount? A couple of friends got married recently and I found out they paid over half of what the owed in cash to get pretty decent discount. So before we talk privacy and company let's…

Taiwan is mostly cash and they use a receipt lottery to encourage people to buy from vendors who give receipts. Each receipt has a number and there's a lottery at the end of the month with cash prizes. Also, people here know they can report a business for not giving out receipts. They might get a share of recovered taxes for that. I don't know all the pros and cons of that setup but it seems there are ways to maintai…

I was familiar with the lotteries (didn't participate -- I just put my receipts in the charity buckets or the trash) but had NO IDEA this was why. I just assumed it was because the culture is just much more amenable to gambling (which I think is also true, but might not be the reason it's tied to receipts).

If this is truly the reason for the lotteries, is the government / tax agency giving out the prizes? I never bothered to look closely but it always seemed something run by those businesses.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#190

Post by Wonderdonkey » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 7:11 PM UTC

carlob wrote: post #53

Here in Italy the big issue is that many business will just not declare cash transactions. It's pretty common not to be given a receipt when buying a coffee and often when you visit a doctor they'll say: do you want the invoice or a discount? A couple of friends got married recently and I found out they paid over half of what the owed in cash to get pretty decent discount. So before we talk privacy and company let's…

It seems to me the most unscrupulous businesses in the United States all do their business by the books. No need to fudge it by failing to declare revenue. They just don't pay taxes, and it's all legal.

Cash businesses here do exist. My mechanic only takes cash, and he's a lot cheaper (and, incidentally, better and more honest with his customers) than other mechanics I've dealt with. I wonder how the IRS deals with that. I know that with people who get tips (waiters, hairdressers, etc.) they assume a certain percentage of income from cash tips.