Why we should fear a cashless world • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#121

Post by fweespee_ch » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 3:24 PM UTC

clarkmoody wrote: post #96

fweespee_ch wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You meant "cost for government," right? Well, depends on if you want a government capable of affording to pay for public education, roads, military, etc. I mean if you care about none of these things and want the government completely destroyed, a 50% revenue cut might seem okay to you.

Of course I care about those things. I simply think that government is not required to provide them.

So who provides them if the government does not without falling into the tragedy of the commons and/or cutting off the poor from access to such services?

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#122

Post by tomchentw » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 3:25 PM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #70

carlob wrote: post #53

Here in Italy the big issue is that many business will just not declare cash transactions. It's pretty common not to be given a receipt when buying a coffee and often when you visit a doctor they'll say: do you want the invoice or a discount? A couple of friends got married recently and I found out they paid over half of what the owed in cash to get pretty decent discount. So before we talk privacy and company let's…

Taiwan is mostly cash and they use a receipt lottery to encourage people to buy from vendors who give receipts. Each receipt has a number and there's a lottery at the end of the month with cash prizes. Also, people here know they can report a business for not giving out receipts. They might get a share of recovered taxes for that. I don't know all the pros and cons of that setup but it seems there are ways to maintai…

Taiwanese confirmed here. Basically we use a lot of cash in our daily lives. The "hidden economy" still exists in some places, like some outdoor vendors or night markets.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#123

Post by mseebach » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 3:25 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #98

clarkmoody wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the tried-and-true roads & bridges argument. No, I don't believe the government is necessary to do those things. But if you look at actual government spending, these sorts of infrastructure projects are dwarfed by things like military spending, which could use a reduction.

Let's keep in mind we're talking about Italy here. So the knee-jerk "BUT DRONES" response is probably less accurate than if we were talking about the US or the UK or something.

Yes, let's indeed keep in mind that we're talking about Italy here.

http://www.voxeu.org/article/public-sector-inefficiency-and-...

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#124

Post by tgb » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 3:27 PM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #70

carlob wrote: post #53

Here in Italy the big issue is that many business will just not declare cash transactions. It's pretty common not to be given a receipt when buying a coffee and often when you visit a doctor they'll say: do you want the invoice or a discount? A couple of friends got married recently and I found out they paid over half of what the owed in cash to get pretty decent discount. So before we talk privacy and company let's…

Taiwan is mostly cash and they use a receipt lottery to encourage people to buy from vendors who give receipts. Each receipt has a number and there's a lottery at the end of the month with cash prizes. Also, people here know they can report a business for not giving out receipts. They might get a share of recovered taxes for that. I don't know all the pros and cons of that setup but it seems there are ways to maintai…

Is this game-able by buying lots of things for a penny each from your own store, that kind of thing?

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#125

Post by st3v3ndungan » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 3:28 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #117

st3v3ndungan wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if the people have the will to demand it I think Mitch Hedberg put it best: I give you a dollar, you give me a donut. End of transaction. What's a consumer's interest in asking for a receipt? Especially when you can get a discount instead?

> require receipts for all transactions, allow consumers to report business who do not give receipts You incentivize compliance through monetary awards for reporting offenders.

So I guess I'm curious about how Italy's system works then? It's an empirical question, how much money would I have to be offered to turn on a system of convenience and perhaps monetary discounts? (I'm not considering the downside of off the book transactions as a consumer, I realize).

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#126

Post by rsync » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #97

carlob wrote: post #53

Here in Italy the big issue is that many business will just not declare cash transactions. It's pretty common not to be given a receipt when buying a coffee and often when you visit a doctor they'll say: do you want the invoice or a discount? A couple of friends got married recently and I found out they paid over half of what the owed in cash to get pretty decent discount. So before we talk privacy and company let's…

There's a super easy fix for that, if the people have the will to demand it: require receipts for all transactions, allow consumers to report business who do not give receipts, and have large fines for businesses who still don't. Offer cash rewards to consumers who report businesses that are repeat offenders.

"There's a super easy fix for that, if the people have the will to demand it: require receipts for all transactions, allow consumers to report business who do not give receipts, and have large fines for businesses who still don't. Offer cash rewards to consumers who report businesses that are repeat offenders."

This already exists and is in wide use in China. It's quite interesting.

If you go to a restaurant in Shenzhen, for instance, you are issued a stack of scrip whose denomination matches (to the nearest ten, IIRC) your total bill.

Those little paper slips are lottery tickets which award real cash prizes:

http://engineerinshenzhen.com/chinas-receipt-lottery/

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#127

Post by zzalpha » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 3:33 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #103

zzalpha wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since it's unaccountable, I tend to spend it more frivolously. Which is fine! Here's what you do: allot a certain amount of cash to discretionary expenses each month. You take that money out at the beginning of each month (actually in my case, twice a month) and then use it. And when you run out you're out. What you've just done is used physical cash to put a hard ceiling on your discretionary spending. This turns…

This is also called "budgeting"

I appreciate your deeply insightful comment. Thank you for your service.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#128

Post by rspdelhi » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 3:34 PM UTC

Transaction by bartering and then cash was a well thought process and is in practice even today. But at the beginning this was too just a naïve idea. Similarly Cashless transaction is being experimented and who knows it will be a standard of future overcoming the drawbacks of the with cash transactions. There is nothing to fear abut it.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#129

Post by studentrob » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 3:35 PM UTC

tgb wrote: post #124

studentrob wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan is mostly cash and they use a receipt lottery to encourage people to buy from vendors who give receipts. Each receipt has a number and there's a lottery at the end of the month with cash prizes. Also, people here know they can report a business for not giving out receipts. They might get a share of recovered taxes for that. I don't know all the pros and cons of that setup but it seems there are ways to maintai…

Is this game-able by buying lots of things for a penny each from your own store, that kind of thing?

Somewhat but I imagine you'd risk getting caught =)

One thing I wonder is if you have an increased likelihood of winning if you buy more. Does a $1 purchase give you the same chance to win $100 as a $20 purchase? I don't really know. Over 100 receipts you usually win like $5

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#130

Post by SimpleMinds » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 3:38 PM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #118

kyrra wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has something similar as well, called the Fapiao: http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2013/08/13/understanding-... Though as I understand it, it requires a dot matrix printer to populate these receipts (or writing them by hand).

Hmm I don't remember receiving many receipts in China. I spent 3 months there over two occasions a couple years ago. Taiwan's implementation appears more successful to me. Fapiao means receipt, so that makes sense. There is some required hardware or software but doesn't seem any more cumbersome than a credit card machine and printer. Nearly every shop has them in TW. Edit: reading further I see China is rolling out t…

That's because you have to actively ask for it. If you don't, they never (almost) give it to you, as business buy those fapiaos from gov.

We asked for them quite often and they gave them each time. Total, we won 2 cans of Coke and maybe 10 yuan :)

Fun fact - fapiaos you get might be fake. Once I got fake fapiao, printed from fake printer, in fake taxi. I know it's fake because I tried to validate it online (there's service for that) after I noticed I got fake bill :/