Why we should fear a cashless world • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#171

Post by nickik » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 5:36 PM UTC

blowski wrote: post #37

nmrm2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you really mean globally, then inequality is in fact falling. No. Inequality is decreasing between nations as the developing world catches up with the west. But inequality within nations -- even developing nations -- is increasing. It's possible for inequality to increase as the the developing world catches up to the west; in fact, that's exactly what's happening. So the old geographical distributions are very s…

Exactly. On a global scale, the very poor are getting richer, but so are the very rich, while the middle-classes are getting (relatively) poorer. If you are middle-income (somewhere between $10K and $1M), then the probability that your children will be relatively better off than you is falling. See https://publications.credit-suisse.com/tasks/render/file/?fi... - p35 is particularly relevant in this conversation.

False. You kids might not make as much money but in realty their living standards jave grown quite a bit.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#172

Post by LordKano » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 5:41 PM UTC

carlob wrote: post #53

Here in Italy the big issue is that many business will just not declare cash transactions. It's pretty common not to be given a receipt when buying a coffee and often when you visit a doctor they'll say: do you want the invoice or a discount? A couple of friends got married recently and I found out they paid over half of what the owed in cash to get pretty decent discount. So before we talk privacy and company let's…

When this kind of tax evasion becomes widespread, that should be a clear indicator that the tax rate is too high.

In a cashless society, it becomes possible (if not inevitable) the enforcement of that taxation will become even more onerous.

$20 from grandma for your birthday? Gift tax.

You and your co-workers decide to split a large lunch? Temporary incorporation tax.

Your friend buys a 50 pack of DVD-Rs and you split them by reimbursing him half of the cost? Sales tax, again.

Sell an old comic book to a friend for more money than you paid for it? Capital gains tax.

Cash acts as an inhibitor to the impulse to tax everything or to tax it too greatly. It's understood that if you make a tax too burdensome, people will avoid and evade it.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#173

Post by nmrm2 » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 5:46 PM UTC

gizi wrote: post #169

nmrm2 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope that globalization isn't inconsistent with national autonomy, especially when it comes to taxation and social policy. If these two things are inconsistent, then globalization will lose out in the long run. That would be a shame, because liberalized borders and economies -- if properly regulated -- would benefit everyone. > One possible result of such policy would be that both will turn out to be less intereste…

> Tax rates on the top 1% or 0.5% of earners could double over-night ... They are not after the 1%, never have, and never will. They are after you and me, my friend. So, gear up for a good fight, because I am giving them zilch. I'd rather flush my money down the toilet. > So your argument for not redistributing some percentage of the wealth of billionaires is that they're petty assholes who will take their ball and g…

> They are not after the 1%, never have, and never will. They are after you and me, my friend.

Oh right. Those bastards trying to close corporate tax loopholes are totally doing so because they hate me and all the money I'm not saving due to those loopholes...

> Yes

> In order to outsmart them, you will have to be smarter

NO! It's really not that damn complicated. And there are even plenty of extant policy proposals for eliminating or greatly reducing tax avoidance schemes.

Public policy, most of the time, isn't rocket science. See e.g. https://www.oecd.org/ctp/BEPSActionPlan.pdf

There's a difference between globalization of unskilled labor, globalization of skilled labor, and tax avoidance. The first and second are, to varying extent, unavoidable and probably net beneficial to the bulk of humanity. The last is not unavoidable and is also decidedly unbeneficial for most of humanity.

(There's also a difference between off-shoring for the purpose of true cost reduction nand off-shoring for the purpsoe of tax avoidance. The former is far more common than the latter, although a decent amount of FDI is about tax/tariff avoidance.)

> but if you could, you would be one of them

Of course I would. But I'm not delusional and wasn't born into either connections or cash. So I do what I can to boost my odds, but I also cooperate whenever the opportunity arises.

And, if I ever do "make it", I'm sure as hell not going to become one of those "got mine, fuck you" types.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#174

Post by newjersey » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 5:46 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #164

clarkmoody wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accountability must come from outside government for it to be effective.

Not necessarily, you just need the internal auditors to have independence and the right incentives. And actually-enforced penalties for individuals in government who stonewall the auditors because they know an honest auditor would want to reduce their budget.

Also I absolutely hate how people think cutting government income is a good way to cut wasteful spending because it is immediately obvious it doesn't work. It can't work.

We cheered when that scumbag Reagan talked about starving the beast. It was clear that even George HW Bush, Reagan's running mate knew it was a stupid idea. The problem that neocons won't talk about is that we don't have a single preferential way of allocating budget. Imagine we shrunk government income by one trillion dollars. That's the easy part but where will we cut our expenses? We haven't dealt with the difficult problem at all.

Remember that every dollar "wasted" goes to someone. If they are loud and influential, they will probably get to keep their money/credit. So basically the rebalancing brought upon by starving the beast is nothing more than a cash grab by the more powerful more influential over those less so.

I invite anyone who talks about cutting taxes to first come up with a plan to cut government spending. If the spending cut is palatable and can survive the mobs, I am in favor of starving our babies to cut taxes for the wealthy. But we can't put the cart before the horse. No new tax cuts without at least a matching spending cut that we can keep for at least a decade or so.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#175

Post by sokoloff » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 5:49 PM UTC

david-given wrote: post #162

st3v3ndungan wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if the people have the will to demand it I think Mitch Hedberg put it best: I give you a dollar, you give me a donut. End of transaction. What's a consumer's interest in asking for a receipt? Especially when you can get a discount instead?

If I find dead insects in my donut, I'd like to have evidence that I actually bought a donut from them.

What are you going to do with that evidence that walking back to the shop won't accomplish? If I'm too far away, I'll throw the donut in the trash. If I'm nearby with nothing better to do, I'll stop back and ask for a refund.

Nothing about that practically requires a receipt. If I'm denied a refund when I go back with an insect-laden donut, I can make enough ruckus in the shop to get my entertainment value's worth. I don't really need the $0.75 anymore than I need the donut...

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#176

Post by boondaburrah » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 5:51 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #49

mikegioia wrote: post #10

I've been "cash only" for 8 months now and I love it. Of course I need a credit card if I buy something on Amazon or a one-off web store, but the point is to move as many transactions offline as possible. There are so many privacy benefits to using cash, but one that really resonates with me is the physical nature of it. When you pay for something with cash, you can feel the transaction of money exchanging hands and…

Funnily enough, I'm the exact opposite. Mentally, money in my account is "my money". Cash I've withdrawn feels like already-spent money. Since it's unaccountable, I tend to spend it more frivolously. Might be a generation-to-generation thing.

My first real job & paycheck was an internship in Tokyo. Since Japan is very cash-based, and I only had a savings account (and wasn't sure what the limit on transactions was, if any), I would withdraw my spending money /for the month/ and avoid going to the ATM as much as possible.

It definitely formed a different attitude towards cash then I feel I otherwise would have got. The money I have left in my wallet feels like all I have this month, and as the bills disappear I really feel the spending. I feel spending from my bank account much less.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#177

Post by sokoloff » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 5:51 PM UTC

walterbell wrote: post #74

rickdale wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many privacy benefits to using cash I like to use cash a lot too. And the privacy benefits are true sometimes, but more and more places want your information when you purchase anything. I bought a weed wacker the other day and they wanted my address and phone and email. I never say no, but instead reply with, "555 Fake Street" which is obnoxious, but its like you don't need my damn address to sell me law…

How many people use 555-areacode-1212 for loyalty card search at the cash register? It's an offline equivalent of bugmenot.

-555-1212 is the correct order.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#178

Post by silvestrov » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 5:51 PM UTC

LordKano wrote: post #172

carlob wrote: post #53

Here in Italy the big issue is that many business will just not declare cash transactions. It's pretty common not to be given a receipt when buying a coffee and often when you visit a doctor they'll say: do you want the invoice or a discount? A couple of friends got married recently and I found out they paid over half of what the owed in cash to get pretty decent discount. So before we talk privacy and company let's…

When this kind of tax evasion becomes widespread, that should be a clear indicator that the tax rate is too high. In a cashless society, it becomes possible (if not inevitable) the enforcement of that taxation will become even more onerous. $20 from grandma for your birthday? Gift tax. You and your co-workers decide to split a large lunch? Temporary incorporation tax. Your friend buys a 50 pack of DVD-Rs and you spli…

> tax rate is too high

It's not that simple. Scandinavia has a higher tax rate than Italy (and Russia), but much less tax evasion.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#179

Post by sokoloff » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 6:01 PM UTC

blowski wrote: post #37

nmrm2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you really mean globally, then inequality is in fact falling. No. Inequality is decreasing between nations as the developing world catches up with the west. But inequality within nations -- even developing nations -- is increasing. It's possible for inequality to increase as the the developing world catches up to the west; in fact, that's exactly what's happening. So the old geographical distributions are very s…

Exactly. On a global scale, the very poor are getting richer, but so are the very rich, while the middle-classes are getting (relatively) poorer. If you are middle-income (somewhere between $10K and $1M), then the probability that your children will be relatively better off than you is falling. See https://publications.credit-suisse.com/tasks/render/file/?fi... - p35 is particularly relevant in this conversation.

> If you are middle-income (somewhere between $10K and $1M), then the probability that your children will be relatively better off than you is falling.

The charts you reference are for wealth, not income. The chart on page 36 suggests about a 1/8 chance for a reduction in pyramid tier and about a 48% chance for an increase in tier. (Now, that's also a blended chart, but I don't see anything particularly dire in that data for North Americans.)

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#180

Post by david-given » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 6:02 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #175

david-given wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I find dead insects in my donut, I'd like to have evidence that I actually bought a donut from them.

What are you going to do with that evidence that walking back to the shop won't accomplish? If I'm too far away, I'll throw the donut in the trash. If I'm nearby with nothing better to do, I'll stop back and ask for a refund. Nothing about that practically requires a receipt. If I'm denied a refund when I go back with an insect-laden donut, I can make enough ruckus in the shop to get my entertainment value's worth. I…

Actually I would send it and a photo of the donut to the local health and safety regulators. I don't care about how much I spent; I care about not having it happen again.