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Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

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Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#261

Post by 13of40 »

rubicon33 wrote: post #108
justsaysmthng wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because your addiction is also your wife's problem, your parent's problem, your company's problem. Addiction affects more than just the addict. And addicts are in need of help - while it is easy to think that "they like being high, it's their choice", in fact the addicts hate their habit more than anything, yet they can't stop using without external help. Would you help a person with a broken leg ? Why ? Well, that's…

If they broke their leg while doing something that endangered not only themself, but their family, their friends, and society on a whole, I might not jump at an opportunity to help them.

I think I'd help anyone with a broken leg, regardless if they'd been making an ass of themselves to get it. Maybe I'd say "hey man".... Afterwards, but I wouldn't forego help on the spot.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#262

Post by gohrt »

krschultz wrote: post #15

I've never taken an illegal drug in my life. I've smoked a cigarette about 5 times. I drank in college but lately I've cut that out of my life as well. I had a security clearance with drug testing requirements for a while and now I just don't like the feeling of a hangover from alcohol or the risk of ingesting random plants/chemicals made by shady people. In short: I'm the most vanilla, square, anti-drug person you c…

Drugs should be illegal (or at least highly controlled) because they are extremely dangerous. Drug users should not be criminalized. It's as simple as that.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#263

Post by gohrt »

twblalock wrote: post #64
evincarofautumn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an alcoholic. I’ve cut back on my use significantly, and I’m currently in a period of abstinence. Because alcohol is legal and socially accepted, it’s entirely my responsibility to manage my behaviour and keep my use to non-problematic levels. Not everyone has the social support to make that happen. I think legalisation would be beneficial, as you say, because the criminal justice system does not serve addicts. H…

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

> The libertarian case

Very few people in society care about the libertarian case.

> Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse them.

Is that so? I'd estimate that the number of such people is not very high, and is dropping.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#264

Post by gohrt »

citizensixteen wrote: post #189
elipsey wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? Suposing that it doesn't, doing nothing would be a hell of lot cheaper and easier than what we are doing now. Opiodes are derived from cheap agricultural products. A tablet of herion needn't cost more than asprin. The explicit goal of federal enforcment agencies is to raise pri…

>Go get a cup of coffee, fire up youtube, and listen Milton Friedman Another vote for Milton. I have watched several of his talks on the subject and it is amazing how clear and rational his thinking is. It is a real pleasure to watch. Amazing how this subject has become dominated by misinformation and hype. Nobel economist Milton Friedman said, "The proper role of government is exactly what John Stuart Mill Said in t…

Drug addiction harms people around the addict as well. The libertarian axiom that society doesn't matter, because society doesn't exist, is not a useful axiom for designing a social contract.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#265

Post by gohrt »

hutzlibu wrote: post #218
massysett wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and it's not helping anyone except the sprawling profession of drug-warriors, and the black market gangsters High prices are reducing drug usage. That's basic economics. Food is cheap, so people eat a lot and get fat. Alcohol is cheap, so people drink a lot and destroy themselves. It's not hard to deduce what cheap heroin would do.

Oversimplification. Water is cheap, do people drink too much, so they loose too much salt? People eat or drink to compensate for other things. Happens with heroine, too, sure. But for some the right drug at the right time is medicine, to get their life back in balance. If you have more options than just overeating or overdrinking, then your chances are higher that you find, what you need to get on with your life ...

Water is not addictive, the body has natural immune reactions to overdosing on water before it becomes fatal.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#266

Post by mapt »

billmalarky wrote: post #77
mapt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All it takes is the standard opioid pain prescription. That's getting high. Opioids get you high. That's what's necessary for pain relief: Altered neurological states in which pain coming in from the nervous system doesn't have such a strong effect on the conscious mind. It's that simple. Deal with it. Drugs have effects. Usage doesn't cross some threshold dose and instantly become abuse.

Painkillers are incredibly effective at stopping pain before the point at which most would describe the person as "high." It's not euphoria from a high that blocks the pain, the medication really does work as intended. It's just also incredibly habit forming and dangerous.

"Painkillers" describes wildly different chemicals, many of which have no euphoric effect whatsoever. We're not talking about "painkillers", we're talking about opiate/opioid narcotics - derivatives or synthetic reproductions of chemicals created in the opium poppy, which are chosen for their efficacy in crossing the bloody-brain barrier and altering our perception of pain (and everything else), via the mu opioid receptors.

These chemicals stimulate receptors in the brain which are part of natural feedback cycles in which part of our brain synthesizes similar chemicals and feeds them to other parts of our brain to nudge conscious thought in a beneficial direction (learning, eating, running, fighting, mating). The broad class of opioid receptors appears to be central to how the vertebrate brain works.

Natural behavioral reinforcement, pain relief, intense euphoric highs: Same receptors, same effect, same mechanism, somewhat different quantity. Injured people given vicodin often describe "Not caring about the pain". Because they're high - at least, a little bit.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#267

Post by SCAQTony »

evincarofautumn wrote: post #44
krschultz wrote: post #15

I've never taken an illegal drug in my life. I've smoked a cigarette about 5 times. I drank in college but lately I've cut that out of my life as well. I had a security clearance with drug testing requirements for a while and now I just don't like the feeling of a hangover from alcohol or the risk of ingesting random plants/chemicals made by shady people. In short: I'm the most vanilla, square, anti-drug person you c…

I’m an alcoholic. I’ve cut back on my use significantly, and I’m currently in a period of abstinence. Because alcohol is legal and socially accepted, it’s entirely my responsibility to manage my behaviour and keep my use to non-problematic levels. Not everyone has the social support to make that happen. I think legalisation would be beneficial, as you say, because the criminal justice system does not serve addicts. H…

I am curious, as an admitted alcoholic what is it like during the holidays when Billboards, radio commercial and internet ads play up alcohol as a gift or good time? Do you find alcohol tempting, annoying or are you sanguine about it?

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#268

Post by Klinky »

rubicon33 wrote: post #215
j2bax wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I don't consider myself such a good judge. If someone's in need, I like to think I will help them in whatever capacity I can. Many things lead to people making bad decisions, and they aren't all internal 1-sided factors.

I guess that's where we disagree. I do consider myself a good judge. If you don't feel you have a sharp rational thought, an ability to consider a wide range of factors, including a dose of fair human compassion, then yes you probably should just help out everyone by default. That's a good default position to take, and one I do commend. Myself on the other hand, I believe in my own ability to be fair in judgement, to…

Are you sure you're not suffering from Dunning–Kruger effect?

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#269

Post by Klinky »

mindcrime wrote: post #257
vectorjohn wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just arrogant and cruel, it's also logically inconsistent. Everything libertarian leads to an everyone for themselves hellscape. But this in particular would indicate you shouldn't help someone in a car accident because of driving in bad weather, or really driving at all. They took the risk, the risk was well known, so screw them while they bleed to death in the car, right?

Everything libertarian leads to an everyone for themselves hellscape How in the world do you arrive at that conclusion? Personally, I can't imagine anything being further from the truth...

It seems the Libertarian mindset would lead someone who survived a plane crash to think that they chose the right seat, and those who died must have had poor seat choosing ability. Instead of it just being chaotic luck. The Libertarian mindset heavily relies on survival bias.

There are a lot of things outside of ones control in life, and while you can try to shape the direction in your life with personal choice, not everyone starts from the same spot, not all situations are the same, and not all risks pay off.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#270

Post by ugexe »

rubicon33 wrote: post #215
j2bax wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I don't consider myself such a good judge. If someone's in need, I like to think I will help them in whatever capacity I can. Many things lead to people making bad decisions, and they aren't all internal 1-sided factors.

I guess that's where we disagree. I do consider myself a good judge. If you don't feel you have a sharp rational thought, an ability to consider a wide range of factors, including a dose of fair human compassion, then yes you probably should just help out everyone by default. That's a good default position to take, and one I do commend. Myself on the other hand, I believe in my own ability to be fair in judgement, to…

Another man who lives by such words is Donald Drump. I look forward to the future where everyone is a self proclaimed great judge of everything.
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