Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else • Hacker News Board

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#121

Post by zo1 » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 7:30 AM UTC

tostitos1979 wrote: post #21

Naritai wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To continue your point: Having the credit score to get a good mortgage. Living in a good zip code, and so your car/home insurance is cheaper. Living in a good zip code, so you can send your kids to public school. Living in a good zip code, so you don't need an expensive security system. Working for a company that provides high-quality health care plans with low deductibles. Owning a newish car, that is much less like…

I generally agree with what has been said. Except for the car part. I thought it was best to drive a car to the ground. I buy reasonably priced sedans for around 20K (but brand new). Full coverage car warranties seem to end after 3 years. I sold my last car at that point (it had started to give me headaches). I got about half the money back .. so 10K loss or 3333 per year. Our current car is also at 3 years and start…

Go second-hand for one of the luxury brands that provide warranty/motor-plan for 5 years. Most of that "loss" is in buying new, instead of second-hand. If you don't mind it, and sell it while it's still in the plan, your 'cost-of-ownership" per year is actually quite good. Might even be better than if you were to get a "low-end" sedan new.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#122

Post by mikekchar » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 7:55 AM UTC

lxe wrote: post #69

mikekchar wrote: post #31

I've never been able to articulate my own feeling about wealth and poverty. I've been objectively poor at some points in my life. I became vegetarian in my early 20s when I was travelling because I couldn't afford meat. Even then there were some weeks where I didn't eat for a few days because I had spent all my money for the week. It sounds bad, but being hungry taught me how to prioritise and I don't regret it. In o…

You are "quit writing software and went to Japan" poor. There is also the "working 2 jobs to feed 3 kids" sort of poor. These are completely different kinds of "poor".

I know it doesn't help the "working 2 jobs to feed 3 kids" people at all, but part of my lifestyle choice is not to have 3 kids. It's also not part of my lifestyle to have a partner who is demanding about having stuff. These are choices and sometimes they are choices that hurt (just like choosing not to eat even though I have money in the bank).

I understand that there are people who are already in a situation where they are in trouble. That's pretty much my point. It doesn't matter if you have 3 kids and can't afford to feed them or if you have $20K in debt and can't make your payments. That's real poverty. Even without an income, I was never poor because I never had those responsibilities.

I feel sad for people in those predicaments. Sometimes it comes through poor choices. Sometimes it comes from unfortunate circumstances that are outside of their control. It doesn't really matter, because you are where you are and there is nothing that will magically transport you to a better place. But you do have choices left in the future and I think it is worth considering the impact that money in the bank can have on your life.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#123

Post by Freak_NL » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 11:53 AM UTC

chanux wrote: post #59

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #54

My wife has taught me so much about living frugally. We both grew up relatively poor and I consider myself frugal, but she knows the power of coupons and sales. She combines coupons with sales to get very good prices, and budgets strictly for what we need. She'll also game the heck out of store policies ("you are out of stock on item Y so I'm wondering if I can buy item X for the same price"). Also buy a bidet. They…

Also buy a bidet. They cost less than $40, are better for the environment, and will save on your TP costs! THIS! I really don't understand why a bidet isn't very popular.

Probably because the traditional Western image of a bidet is a separate bowl in a luxurious bathroom. That is, it comes across as a luxury item.

It is an interesting topic though. I have spent a year living in Japan as a graduate student, and had an ultra-modern all-in-one toilet with a built-in bidet (these are quite common in Japanese homes, and even hotels tend to have them en-suite).

At first you are confronted with your cultural baggage; all your life you have been using toilet paper to sanitize your nether regions. After that curiosity sets in, and you rationalize that if a whole modern society embraces this technology, than certainly there must be something to it. Then you start using it, and soon marvel at how barbaric and uncouth the toilet paper method is.

Upon returning to my Western country I was again back to toilet paper, but getting a Japanese style toilet seat with built-in bidet is on my wish list…

Unfortunately, toilet habits are not something that can be easily changed in any society. It is not something people like to discuss. If you've never encountered a bidet (built-in or otherwise) and had the opportunity to use it for a decent while, chances are you will reject the notion of owning one.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#124

Post by ap22213 » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 12:06 PM UTC

mikekchar wrote: post #31

I've never been able to articulate my own feeling about wealth and poverty. I've been objectively poor at some points in my life. I became vegetarian in my early 20s when I was travelling because I couldn't afford meat. Even then there were some weeks where I didn't eat for a few days because I had spent all my money for the week. It sounds bad, but being hungry taught me how to prioritise and I don't regret it. In o…

What's your life story before 20? I think those are critical development years.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#125

Post by Sven7 » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 12:23 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #95

Sven7 wrote: post #90

Since the crowd around here can't exist without an increase in poverty, the real question is how many poor people do we need to produce one Zuckerberg. If we want more Zuckerbergs we need more poor people, just as if we want more whales in the ocean we need more ocean. Pretty sure Trump can work out a nice formula to export the poor into the developing world, in return for an expansion of H1B visas or something. Give…

> Since the crowd around here can't exist without an increase in poverty, [...] How does that work?

In so many ways. You can find the pattern everywhere once you start looking.

On a recent trip I saw the after effects of a Nokia factory closing. Now one would think given the boom in phones it wouldn't be an issue for the employees to get new jobs. Two years after loosing their jobs the majority were involved in evangelical churches or multilevel marketing schemes.

Disruption does many useful things, but I feel the benefits are accruing to fewer and fewer people at the expense of many.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#126

Post by JustSomeNobody » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 1:15 PM UTC

stvswn wrote: post #50

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #15

Every so often I read one of these articles. Thing is, this isn't new information. I've been reading about it since at least the 80's (and I'm quite certain it's been happening since forever). Sadly, nothing every gets done about it. The price of a half gallon of milk will never be half the price of a whole gallon.

Do you think it should be?

No, I don't. I think that would be trying to put a bandaid on a larger problem.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#127

Post by mistermann » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 1:34 PM UTC

reqctomaniac wrote: post #114

mistermann wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is absolutely baffling to me - I can't even disagree because I don't understand what you are saying.

I believe the op is referring to the debate about wealth creation and distribution, where one could have a view that people in IT-startups like Zuckerberg are not creating wealth, just distributing it. And to distribute, you need to have someone to distribute FROM and someone to distribute TO. Now the comment should be more legible, I believe.

Ok, and yes that makes sense. The wealth creators don't have to be low paid drones though.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#128

Post by johnchristopher » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 2:08 PM UTC

lotharbot wrote: post #111

dnautics wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought credit was created by merchants to screw the nobility. If there's anything that screws the poor, it's inflation .

Clarification, for the benefit of the sibling comments: inflation screws the poor because (1) the poor are most likely to be on either fixed incomes, or incomes where cost-of-living adjustments are substantially time-delayed relative to the increased cost of living, and (2) they're least likely to have any sort of hedge against inflation or sudden shocks to the system, such as having a paid-off house, a fixed-rate mo…

Sorry, I downvoted your post by accident.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#129

Post by dangerlibrary » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 3:25 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #117

dangerlibrary wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that such institutions do exist, and in many cases they do trigger upwards spirals [1]. The high fixed costs of collection relative to the actual loan amounts drive up the incentive to be a bad actor (on both sides of the transaction) and that makes small amounts of debt much more expensive than large amounts. But the existence of bad actors doesn't invalidate the positive impact access to low-cost loans can c…

But the Vimes theory was being offered to explain socioeconomic inequality within a society and depends on the "poor" options being more expensive per unit, while the microfinance successes happen mainly via investment of from richer countries into poorer ones, where they have lower prices per unit. (i.e. a dollar buys a lot more stuff in the third world). IOW, to the extent that microfinance has successes, it's in s…

There is nothing about the theory of microfinance that relies on the existence of international borders or differences in purchasing power. You have created a straw man.

The fact that "impact per dollar" is greater when one is able to exploit purchasing power differences makes it relatively more attractive as a charitable enterprise, so many charity organizations gravitate there, but it is absolutely not a necessary component of a successful microlending structure.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#130

Post by AndrewUnmuted » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 4:20 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #103

lxe wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are "quit writing software and went to Japan" poor. There is also the "working 2 jobs to feed 3 kids" sort of poor. These are completely different kinds of "poor".

Rural or urban also makes a difference. My brother and I regard fish as "poor people's food", a thought brought on by experiences as youths. I should point out many poor people on EBT (new name for food stamps) do buy toilet paper in bulk once a month. I do wonder how many merchants raise some prices on the 1st of the month.

This is exactly one of the problems with EBT. Knowing that all the state benefit income is fast approaching, businesses do everything they can to ensure they sell as much cheap Chinese-made goods, horribly unhealthy food products, and (cold) sandwiches (never hot, that's not something EBT covers) as they can.

Every month this causes huge boom-bust cycles in neighborhoods and local businesses, which adds to the perpetual trauma state benefits have wreaked upon the disenfranchised poor that live in the US's major cities. But Coca-Cola, Nestle, Walmart and Kroger all get their predictable windfalls as a result. And people wonder why these companies are the primary supporters of EBT! It's because EBT is not a people subsidy, but rather a massive corporate subsidy that is also trapping our most vulnerable citizens into food desert wastelands.

As "well intended" as these programs are, they are worse than doing nothing at all, as far as I can tell. I don't see how such massive and ruthless commodification of the poor could ever be achieved in private industry without government support and regulation to bolster it.