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Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

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Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#81
There's some really insightful comments here that I don't want to take anything away from.

I think one important observation is that it's very hard to distinguish poor because they can't from poor because they make bad choices and don't have the tools to make better ones.

Some comments here point out that while toilet paper at Costco might be cheaper than at the corner store, lack of transport options means the corner store is the only option.

Other comments point out that somebody who is poor might spend what little money they have on bad and/or frivolous choices with that money.

Having been pretty darn poor a couple times in my life, I can say that both are true. I've personally been in situations where the only available options were several times more expensive than the cheapest possible one. I've also (and have known many other poor folks) made fabulously stupid decisions on what to spend our limited money on.

An anecdote, I had a poor friend who was constantly struggling to make his rent and car payments and was in a state of near constant financial emergency. He knew, down to the penny, how much money was in his bank account on a daily basis, when pay day was and all his bill paying days. "Don't cash that check until next Thursday" was a normal phrase from him. And yet when a local fair would come around, he'd take a day off work, gather his family in their beat up used car, buy expensive custom made costumes for everyone and spend the day walking around and spending yet more money.

At one point when he ended up on the wrong side of collection for non-payment of a medical bill I showed him with pretty basic arithmetic that his 2 WoW accounts would cover that bill easily if he cancelled his WoW service -- but there were all kinds of emotional reasons why he couldn't and he didn't and he ended up in very serious financial trouble.

But he also packed his lunch every day, would skip meals, knew the prices of all the local gas stations so he could save on fuel, and wore clothes that were literally falling apart. Then spend $50 one Friday night at a movie premier, or spending $500 on a tattoo or whatever.

It turns out humans are complicated, and poverty/being poor is complicated. There are probably a pretty large number of people who are currently very poor who would be in a far better situation with decent financial management -- but have never had the luxury of learning how to do that. And who would probably be better off with training on how to make better life choices.

For example, when I was putting myself through college, I remember coming to the realization that I shouldn't buy any more entertainment of any sort because

a) I didn't have enough time for it anyway

b) It turns out there's plenty of free and legal ways of killing time

Now I'm not poor (thankfully) and have carried this forward with me. I almost never go to movies or concerts, I don't buy lots of bullshit or useless electronics. I'm selective in clothes and other necessities. I don't pay for cable TV or a land-line phone (neither of which I'd use) And when I feel like blowing off some steam I simply fire up Hulu or a freeware game or youtube or I paint, read a book or watch a DVD from the library etc.

I turned not spending money on stupid stuff into a habit, but it was definitely something I had to come to a personal realization about and consciously train myself for. I still get that sweaty palm feeling when I see a Steam sale or a Humble Bundle. But paradoxically, I have the disposable income to buy that stuff because I trained myself not to have disposable income.

This is very hard to get across to many poor-but-could-be-ok folks because they have strong emotional and irrational reasons for what they do and it's those reasons that are very hard to break.

I'm almost convinced that there's a kind of poverty in otherwise high functioning people that could be "fixed" with a certain mental health and training regime, without any other changes to their financial status.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#82
post #12

Some destitute-college-student friends were telling me that they lived on a $20/week of rice + beans + canned tomatoes; I suggested that I take them out to Costco and for $100 stuff their pantries with ~3 months of supplies. They patiently explained to idiot me that the reason they ate so poorly was because finding $100 was effectively impossible.

You could lend them $100 at 20% APR, and they could pay you back with costco savings.

I was a college student within the last decade and I wouldn't trust college students with $5. I'd much rather give that money to someone who says he wants money for drugs. Or I'd give them money but I'd not have any expectation of getting it back. A loan that is not. Also if they're friends, loaning money to friends is one of the easiest way to lose friends.

Unrelated, but I seriously doubt you could eat for three months for $100 at Costco unless you subsist on bulk oatmeal and other dry food.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#83

Terry Pratchett said it very well: “The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten d…

Go back to reddit.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#84
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just about to post this because it said there was no comments and when I opened it you had just beaten me to it! I would like to note that it was from the book "Men at Arms". The older I get the more I see this. Paying upfront to get a lower rate on your mortgage. Having money to begin with to manage well to get a good rate on a mortgage to start with. Having the flexibility in general to try something that may…

To continue your point: Having the credit score to get a good mortgage. Living in a good zip code, and so your car/home insurance is cheaper. Living in a good zip code, so you can send your kids to public school. Living in a good zip code, so you don't need an expensive security system. Working for a company that provides high-quality health care plans with low deductibles. Owning a newish car, that is much less like…

You gotta be rich to own a cheap car. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/02/no-fixed-abode-gott...

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#85

I've never been able to articulate my own feeling about wealth and poverty. I've been objectively poor at some points in my life. I became vegetarian in my early 20s when I was travelling because I couldn't afford meat. Even then there were some weeks where I didn't eat for a few days because I had spent all my money for the week. It sounds bad, but being hungry taught me how to prioritise and I don't regret it. In o…

> That kind of wealth is available to many people, but I think that most people can't see it, unfortunately.

I don't much like beer. Something about the taste, maybe the hops, I dunno. Every time I tell someone I don't like beer, they say "Oh, you just haven't had _good_ beer! You should try this one!" And I try it, and I don't like it. Some folks can acquire a taste for beer, given enough exposure. I've given it plenty of exposure, and it just doesn't work for me.

I suspect that the ability to "see" the kind of wealth you're talking about, to be happy and fulfilled on a razor-edge budget, is like a taste for beer. Some people have it built-in, some people can acquire it, some people will never have it; they just aren't wired that way. It's really cool that you were able to be happy under those circumstances. But it's dangerous to assume (with just about anything) that everyone else could learn to be like you, if they only wanted it enough.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#86
post #62
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are payday loans a real killer? Is it because you think short-term, high-interest loans to people with poor credit is bad for the people with poor credit, or are you OK with it in principle but think they should be more upfront about some of the shady things like hidden fees, deceptive tactics, etc.?

Slightly off topic but from my experience in the UK the problem tends more to be 35% credit card interest. Payday loan people like Wonga generally won't lend to the seriously poor - they make their money from generally solvent people who've had something like a boiler pack up needing replacement.

Bingo. I used to have a job he payday loan industry in the US. The truest poor would be terrible clients because they'll never pay you back. And since you only lent $300 you'd lose more than that trying to collect with a lawyer (ignoring the fact they can't pay in the first place).

People who can manage their money up have a sudden need aren't good either. They'll take the loan, pay it back, and that's it. You made $60 and nothing else.

The customers they want are on the edge. They have enough money to be able to 'rollover' the loan (extend another 2 weeks for a fee) but not actually pay it off. Over time the fees add up and they're paying you more, but you don't want them to totally default. At $60 + fees every two weeks it doesn't take long to make back the original $300 and then you're printing money.

Yes these can be people right on the edge of total poverty. It can be people who have enough money but are irresponsible and use payday loans to fill gaps but aren't in serious trouble. Sometimes it's people who make a ton of money but are up to their eyeballs in debt and can't fill the credit cards up kore.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#87

I've never been able to articulate my own feeling about wealth and poverty. I've been objectively poor at some points in my life. I became vegetarian in my early 20s when I was travelling because I couldn't afford meat. Even then there were some weeks where I didn't eat for a few days because I had spent all my money for the week. It sounds bad, but being hungry taught me how to prioritise and I don't regret it. In o…

It would be fair to say that you have some technical skill not afforded to the truly poor. Most English teaching positions in Japan require a college education, which is the epitome of this study carried to an extreme. Anyone can learn to code or do Linux ops work, a skill that you have that keeps true poverty at bay. Most can go to school on grants if they are truly poor but there's a learning curve to being able to…

This is worth pointing out - education is human capital, an intangible form of wealth.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#88
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, I don't think most people agree on this.

Really? Most people don't think that "much poverty" is caused by human behaviour? I'll grant that some temporary localized poverty may exist due to circumstances beyond human control, but I'm absolutely certain that most poverty exists because humans collectively permit it, not because we are - as a whole - powerless to prevent it.

Pure environmental factors for poverty won't necessarily be temporary, since land might just be infertile for thousands of years.

I think that poverty is within human control in the same way that cancer is. Cancer has always been around, and nobody has ever been able to solve it. While most can agree that we have more control over cancer now, sometimes we take a backwards step and introduce something that encourages it.

I'd argue that cancer, like poverty, is a circumstance we find ourselves in. Something that has been there forever, and which we are trying to get under control. And like cancer, the circumstances of poverty inordinately impact people from different backgrounds, even though with a little help from the experts, it could be better. But I'd argue that we don't actively permit cancer to exist like we don't actively permit poverty.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#89
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could lend them $100 at 20% APR, and they could pay you back with costco savings.

I was a college student within the last decade and I wouldn't trust college students with $5. I'd much rather give that money to someone who says he wants money for drugs. Or I'd give them money but I'd not have any expectation of getting it back. A loan that is not. Also if they're friends, loaning money to friends is one of the easiest way to lose friends. Unrelated, but I seriously doubt you could eat for three mo…

> Unrelated, but I seriously doubt you could eat for three months for $100 at Costco unless you subsist on bulk oatmeal and other dry food.

That's supposedly what they're doing now. You could just buy the rice/beans in much larger bulk than normal grocery stores so the money lasts longer.

'Normal' meals with fresh veggies and some meat/etc? You're right.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#90
Since the crowd around here can't exist without an increase in poverty, the real question is how many poor people do we need to produce one Zuckerberg. If we want more Zuckerbergs we need more poor people, just as if we want more whales in the ocean we need more ocean.

Pretty sure Trump can work out a nice formula to export the poor into the developing world, in return for an expansion of H1B visas or something. Given the clamor I still see in China and India for people coming in, shouldn't be too hard to work out. Also they don't use toilet paper there.

And yes I am that cynical of the crowd around here and the effect the tech industry has had on increasing poverty.

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