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Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

syonyk.blogspot.com

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Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#331

Post by scblock »

brandmeyer wrote: post #90
nraynaud wrote: post #8

Interesting, I work in the wind turbine industry (at the margin, and since one month, I guess I'm an expert), and it's the same, there are interesting sensors and data everywhere, but everything is locked down, and as long as the warranty runs, the owner of the turbine is at the mercy of a very reluctant maker for every maintenance task. The owner can't use any of those very useful sensors to assess the state of the…

And then what happens when the mfr. goes out of business? For example, see Clipper Windpower.

Specific to Clipper, the owner of the technology keeps enough money around to keep rebuilding the crazy gearboxes for current owners, while other spares can often be obtained directly from the actual component manufacturers. Third party service organizations like EDF Services or UpWind keep them running for you, or you can hire your own techs.

Depending on the contract the relevant design information may also put in escrow in the event the manufacturer goes under and spares are no longer available.

For comparison, Zond and US Windpower died more than a decade ago but the owners are still keeping the machines going. It can be a challenge but it's not the end of the world.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#332

Post by sf_rob »

legitster wrote: post #145
qume wrote: post #13

This is a good place to share this with geeks who may not be into cars: I drive a 1994 Mercedes (W124 chassis). One of the most reliable cars ever made. Simple to repair yourself. A TON of info available online for anything you could want to fix. Pretty much (probably 100%) of all parts on the car are available super cheap as chinese replacements because the model was around for so long and so many of them are still…

As someone who owns both an E30 BMW and a Ford Escort, there is kind of a "myth" about cost of repair and reliability when it comes to luxury brands. I don't think any BMW or Merc is going to be more reliable or cheaper to repair than a comparable "cheap" car. It's just that people a). take better care of luxury cars and b). people are more likely to keep them running.

Not to mention that reliability =/= cheap repairs. The cost of repairs is much higher on many luxury cars even if repairs are few and far between.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#334

Post by unethical_ban »

tclmeelmo wrote: post #287
maratd wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh yeah we had to sacrifice tactile feedback Nonsense. You need tactile feedback while driving. You will not be using the center console while driving. You will not even be looking at it. All of the stuff you need while driving is tactile. > trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line LOL. I sense hurt feelings. > no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed out Why would it need an OBD-2 po…

> > trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line > LOL. I sense hurt feelings. A Model S weighs something like 4700lbs, depending on battery? I suppose it depends on one's definition of "fast car", but I personally consider more than straight line performance, and lighter cars have a distinct advantage. I agree with Lotus's Colin Chapman: "performance through low weight". > > no OBD-2 port…

Why isn't the API doc at api.tesla.com? Can you link to the official source from Tesla that welcomes modders?

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#335

Post by TD-Linux »

vl wrote: post #329
TD-Linux wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but how many amps are flowing through a wire isn't going to change how badly it electrocutes you.

Actually, it's other way around - amps matter a great deal. 400 volts with low amps feels like a sting. I've touched 25K volt contact once (by mistake), while unpleasant (and some damaged skin), managed just fine - cause very low amps.

I think what you're after is that the impedance matters a great deal - a high voltage but high impedance source will drop in voltage a lot and not deliver a large current into the body.

In both examples I gave, the PSU DC bus and the car, both are much lower impedance than the human body and the difference is likely negligible.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#336

Post by gambiting »

userbinator wrote: post #63
ryandrake wrote: post #45

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

You'd think that out of the thousands of people who have already bought one of these cars, there might be one out there with both the skills and desire to actually own what they paid for On the other hand, it could just be that those who want to really own their cars would not consider buying a Tesla anyway, and those who have the skills are too scared of the legal aspects. I think at the moment, electric cars are st…

I come from a country where there is no emissions-related tax whatsoever. You could be driving a beast which emits 500g of C02/km travelled and you would pay the same tax as someone who drives a prius. The appeal of electric cars is their absolutely insane acceleration, at least in Teslas case. If I was to buy one, that would be the only reason why.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#337

Post by gambiting »

maratd wrote: post #273
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between the touch screen control screaming "Look! Cool! Future! Oh yeah we had to sacrifice tactile feedback and usability when driving while ignoring fifty years of safety research but Cool!", trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line (and literally incapable of doing five laps at Laguna Seca without overheating and going into limp home mode), no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed ou…

> Oh yeah we had to sacrifice tactile feedback Nonsense. You need tactile feedback while driving. You will not be using the center console while driving. You will not even be looking at it. All of the stuff you need while driving is tactile. > trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line LOL. I sense hurt feelings. > no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed out Why would it need an OBD-2 po…

I guess you never had to adjust the temperature while driving? The interface for doing that in the Tesla is horrible, those things should have never been put on a touchscreen.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#338

Post by qb45 »

ams6110 wrote: post #324
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silicon Valley is full of them. While I haven't met one of the owner, I'd be surprised if there weren't some who still had the hacker mindset.

There are certainly software hackers who are not interested in hacking mechanical devices, working on cars, or even understanding them. I'm not one, but most of the other software devs I know are. Their cluelessness about how cars work is almost funny.

Most software devs don't have the Hacker Mindset (TM) at all. If you use "sw devs" and "sw hackers" interchangeably, that's the source of your confusion.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#339

Post by mcv »

Amezarak wrote: post #189
userbinator wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd think that out of the thousands of people who have already bought one of these cars, there might be one out there with both the skills and desire to actually own what they paid for On the other hand, it could just be that those who want to really own their cars would not consider buying a Tesla anyway, and those who have the skills are too scared of the legal aspects. I think at the moment, electric cars are st…

At least for me, it's not about souping the car up, it's about doing repairs and maintenance myself because a) it's cheaper and b) it's more convenient. If I knew I was going to have to drive a car to the dealership anytime something went wrong, I would not buy that car. It's a big hassle (especially if the dealership is any distance away) and almost always outrageously expensive for anything outside of warranty. And…

Same here. We recently bought a second hand Prius at an official dealer (because new is unreasonably expensive, we do care about emissions, and I think we got some warranty from the official dealer). Half a year later, the brakes need to be replaced. Turns out not to fall under the warranty, whereas we think it's unreasonable to sell a car with brakes that need to be replaced that soon. Repair at the official dealer is pretty expensive.

So my wife takes it to our old, trusty local mechanic, and their repairs are a lot cheaper. I forgot if they could also advise us on whether this was reasonable in the first place.

I think my mother also often ended up at an independent mechanic after getting disappointed by official dealers. (My dad always drove leased company cars so didn't have to worry about this stuff. I know nothing about cars (but I'm glad my wife does).)

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#340

Post by marssaxman »

Adirael wrote: post #238
ryandrake wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never bought a 2016 model car (maybe something changed this year?) so I have never heard about the concept of having to ask a manufacturer to "activate" your car before reading this article. I buy used cars and repair them myself. I wonder if this disqualifies me from ever owning an electric car? While more recent cars have begun down the troubling path of making less and less user-serviceable, most cars still h…

I bought a new (to me) motorcycle last week. It's a 2008 and it has loads of electronics (compared to my old bike). One of them is an immobiliser that deactivates when it detects a transponder inside the key. The motorcycle comes with three keys: a red one and two black ones. The black ones will turn on the motorcycle but can't be copied. The red one can be copied and is intended as backup in case you lose the black…

That sounds terrible. The absence of crap like that is one of the things I love about riding a motorcycle. Does the manufacturer of that motorcycle not realize that they are sacrificing one of their competitive advantages by importing that kind of complexity?

I think maybe I'm not going to sell my 1995 Nighthawk after all! Sounds like it might make more sense to just keep it running, simple and straightforward, without having to worry about all this fragile automation.

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