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Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

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Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#281

Post by rblatz »

Grishnakh wrote: post #269
rblatz wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would wager that the vast majority of non-enthusiasts do not have a "business they trust and have a good relationship with" that isn't the dealer.

I think you have no idea what you're talking about. There's an independent repair shop just down the street from me that has as much business as they can handle (they smartly located themselves right outside a major employer's campus, so it's a convenient location for all the people who work there). Everyone knows dealerships are expensive. With the average age of new cars being over 11 years now (according to the ar…

And how many of those people would take their car there after they switch jobs? I'm betting very few. Also things like tires and oil changes are different than major repairs.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#282

Post by PhilWright »

B1FF_PSUVM wrote: post #278
pmarreck wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most WTF part of that article to me was "if hackers are able to find a way to unlock the 40kwh versions to hold a 60kwh charge (which are physically identical batteries limited by software)" ... Seriously?

Ah, another youngster who didn't hear the one about the IBM mainframe upgrades done by moving a jumper. P.S. it's kind of funny that people who make a living from the sale of goods with zero marginal production cost (i.e. additional copies of a program) get weirded out by "pay-by-value" from hardware manufacturers ...

There is a diesel generator company that makes semi-truck sized mobile generators for backup purposes/remote locations. The difference between the cheap vs expensive variants is around $250,000. They only difference is the cheap one has software to limit the output. Now if you could hack that you could save yourself quarter of a mil.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#283

Post by overgard »

maratd wrote: post #273
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between the touch screen control screaming "Look! Cool! Future! Oh yeah we had to sacrifice tactile feedback and usability when driving while ignoring fifty years of safety research but Cool!", trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line (and literally incapable of doing five laps at Laguna Seca without overheating and going into limp home mode), no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed ou…

> Oh yeah we had to sacrifice tactile feedback Nonsense. You need tactile feedback while driving. You will not be using the center console while driving. You will not even be looking at it. All of the stuff you need while driving is tactile. > trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line LOL. I sense hurt feelings. > no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed out Why would it need an OBD-2 po…

> Nonsense. You need tactile feedback while driving. You will not be using the center console while driving. You will not even be looking at it. All of the stuff you need while driving is tactile.

Right, because nobody has ever adjusted the air conditioning or radio while driving...

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#284

Post by marssaxman »

HappyTypist wrote: post #268
gwright wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the market is open and competitive then your concerns should be addressed by other vendors. There is no need, nor is it possible, for every product to be appropriate for every consumer. The 'motivation' for these providers is to achieve a return on investment, they can only do that by creating a value proposition that the market approves, which is not the same things as a value proposition that everyone approves.…

Makes sense. I see it more as lock in.

Sure, but lock-in is a means of reducing market competition and thereby enabling rent extraction. Lock-in practices are an example of rent-seeking behavior.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#285

Post by jacquesm »

B1FF_PSUVM wrote: post #276
jacquesm wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those voids also allow the wiring of the windings to flex slightly under the changing magnetic flux leading to eventual insulation failure.

Most big-ass transformers also produce an audible hum, meaning something is moving enough to push air around.

That's a combination of those same gaps and gaps in the transformer laminations where the laminates don't line up perfectly around the edges (they flutter ever so slightly) and inside the stack if a sheet isn't pressed perfectly flat or the lacquer isn't applied evenly.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#286

Post by maratd »

overgard wrote: post #283
maratd wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh yeah we had to sacrifice tactile feedback Nonsense. You need tactile feedback while driving. You will not be using the center console while driving. You will not even be looking at it. All of the stuff you need while driving is tactile. > trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line LOL. I sense hurt feelings. > no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed out Why would it need an OBD-2 po…

> Nonsense. You need tactile feedback while driving. You will not be using the center console while driving. You will not even be looking at it. All of the stuff you need while driving is tactile. Right, because nobody has ever adjusted the air conditioning or radio while driving...

> Right, because nobody has ever adjusted the air conditioning or radio while driving...

There's a button on the wheel you press for voice commands ...

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#287

Post by tclmeelmo »

maratd wrote: post #273
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between the touch screen control screaming "Look! Cool! Future! Oh yeah we had to sacrifice tactile feedback and usability when driving while ignoring fifty years of safety research but Cool!", trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line (and literally incapable of doing five laps at Laguna Seca without overheating and going into limp home mode), no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed ou…

> Oh yeah we had to sacrifice tactile feedback Nonsense. You need tactile feedback while driving. You will not be using the center console while driving. You will not even be looking at it. All of the stuff you need while driving is tactile. > trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line LOL. I sense hurt feelings. > no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed out Why would it need an OBD-2 po…

> > trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line

> LOL. I sense hurt feelings.

A Model S weighs something like 4700lbs, depending on battery? I suppose it depends on one's definition of "fast car", but I personally consider more than straight line performance, and lighter cars have a distinct advantage. I agree with Lotus's Colin Chapman: "performance through low weight".

> > no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed out

> Why would it need an OBD-2 port when it has an API? http://docs.timdorr.apiary.io/#

Because OBD-2 is a standard with an entire ecosystem built around it.

> 2. Safety. It is the safest vehicle on the road. Period. Because there is no engine block slamming in your face during a front-end collision.

That is an advantage (also, it's on the heavy side and mass helps a lot) and it certainly tests well in crashes. IIHS statistics for injury and medical payments don't however support your statement that it is the "safest vehicle on the road". Porsche's 911 and Boxster have lower Personal Injury Claim frequencies (and the Boxster doesn't even have a roof!).

> 4. No oil changes. No transmission failures. Fewer moving parts = less maintenance needed.

There might be less maintenance needed on some of the drivetrain leading to a more convenient service interval, but there still is maintenance (tires, brakes, brake fluid, HVAC, battery, suspension, steering, etc.) to be done, and the longer service interval might make it more likely for problems to increase in severity before they're noticed. It's kind of a moot point, modern cars have overall excellent reliability on the drivetrain; luxury cars tend to have problems with the electrical system and associated accessories, especially after the lease period is up, and Tesla is no different.

> 5. American designed, American built, no $$$ going to questionable oil interests.

Overall design and final assembly, perhaps, but are you saying that the subsystem vendors are American too, to some degree larger than other manufacturers?

> 10. Supercharger network. Free juice all over the country and beyond. Fills up in 20-30 min.

It's not free, it's incorporated into the cost of the purchase.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#288

Post by brandmeyer »

jacquesm wrote: post #285
B1FF_PSUVM wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most big-ass transformers also produce an audible hum, meaning something is moving enough to push air around.

That's a combination of those same gaps and gaps in the transformer laminations where the laminates don't line up perfectly around the edges (they flutter ever so slightly) and inside the stack if a sheet isn't pressed perfectly flat or the lacquer isn't applied evenly.

Also, air-cooled transformer windings are installed such that there are deliberate air gaps between each coil layer. Spacers are inserted in between the gaps for some structural rigidity, but there is enough remaining flexibility to vibrate.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#289

Post by overgard »

amelius wrote: post #107
ryandrake wrote: post #45

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

> A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. Yes, but on the other hand it is best to view a car as a service, because this makes sure that the interests of the manufacturer (or service provider) are aligned with those of the user: no more "planned obsolescence"; and the manufacturer will plan ahead for recycling of materials because this is in their be…

So, I own a Toyota. I don't need permission from the manufacturer to fix anything, or change anything. It's much cheaper than a tesla, but it will likely last longer. I have no restrictions on how I drive it other than traffic laws. It's not as fast in a straight line, but it's much better on a track and significantly lighter. Everything you describe is a huge downgrade in my personal freedoms, with no clear benefits.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#290

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

brianclements wrote: post #246
ryandrake wrote: post #45

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

Of the handful of people I know that have bought Tesla's, they are very much not of the hacking mindset. I'm not saying this is forever true, but I think the type of person that can actually afford one usually has the "premium" and "executive" mindsets (if I can makeup some terms). That is, they'd rather pay extra for 98% of everything they want and not have the worry of needing to get their hands dirty (the premium…

Silicon Valley is full of them. While I haven't met one of the owner, I'd be surprised if there weren't some who still had the hacker mindset.
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