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Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

syonyk.blogspot.com

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Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#271
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But think about it from another perspective: someone purchases Tesla car, decided to service it himself without sufficient knowledge, then later he resells his car to another individual, the person who buys his car enables the autopilot mode on a car and because of the poor service quality/mistake the original owner did to a car the autopilot goes crazy and steers your car into a brick wall, everyone will blame Tesla…

I don't think Tesla will be treated any differently than any of the other automobile companies when it concerns liability. I imagine Tesla's ahead of the liability game right now. Meaning, I imagine they know exactly where, and when someone accesses their vechicles computers? I'm already calling them their computers? We are buying the cars? We own the vechicle? Right? I'll accept full liability after the warranty exp…

>I don't like this trend towards, "Only the factory can work on the device." It's not fair. It's seems like it violates antitrust laws.

No, it doesn't. That's ridiculous. Antitrust laws are about monopolies, and Tesla does not have anything resembling a monopoly. They're a tiny, tiny fraction of the overall auto fleet (even for new cars), they're a very small manufacturer compared to the giants like GM, Ford, and Toyota, and even if you restrict yourself to electric cars they're not the only choice (Leaf, BMW i3, etc.).

What it does seem to violate, however, is the spirit Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975. In fact, the Massachusetts law which the article mentions was made precisely because of automakers making it nearly impossible for independent mechanics to service cars; this wasn't an issue in 1975 since cars didn't have computers back then, but now they all do.

>I forget the name of the Act, but in the U.S. you are allowed to make minor modifications to automobiles, without affecting warranty. For example, you can change the exhaust, and car companies can't disavow you.

Yep, that's the Magnusson-Moss act. They can only refuse to honor the warranty for cases where they can show the problem was directly caused by the aftermarket part or service. But the end-run around it is not providing service information and not allowing access to computerized tools needed to work on the vehicle. So if, for instance, as discussed in the article, GM makes it so that replacing the master cylinder requires the $10k service tool, they can claim they're not in violation of the act because you can buy the master cylinder (or even an aftermarket one), and the fact that you can't get the $10k computer isn't their problem because that's how the car is designed.

>If companies require us to bring product only back to the factory for repair, guys like me will never buy their product.

The problem here is: what do you do when ALL automakers do this? That's why we need laws preventing this behavior.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The number of teenagers with driver's licenses is the lowest in history. The value of such a statistic is questionable given that the minimum age for a license has increased of late.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/01/19/drivers-... http://time.com/money/4185441/millennials-drivers-licenses-g... http://www.npr.org/2016/02/11/466178523/like-millennials-mor... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/10/14/the-m... http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2016/0120/Why-are-Mi...

From your first link: "Getting a driver's license after turning 16 years old has become a lengthier process in recent years, as regulators instituted more safety hurdles. That has also led to a sharp decline in teenagers who are driving."

That said, this is going sideways because I didn't make a complete and clear post originally. Never mind.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#273
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The aftermarket community for existing cars basically doesn't care about emissions --- one of the biggest attractions of an electric. You've clearly never been behind the wheel of a Tesla. Please go drive one. Emissions were literally the very last reason for buying the car for me.

Between the touch screen control screaming "Look! Cool! Future! Oh yeah we had to sacrifice tactile feedback and usability when driving while ignoring fifty years of safety research but Cool!", trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line (and literally incapable of doing five laps at Laguna Seca without overheating and going into limp home mode), no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed ou…

> Oh yeah we had to sacrifice tactile feedback

Nonsense. You need tactile feedback while driving. You will not be using the center console while driving. You will not even be looking at it. All of the stuff you need while driving is tactile.

> trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line

LOL. I sense hurt feelings.

> no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed out

Why would it need an OBD-2 port when it has an API?

http://docs.timdorr.apiary.io/#

> bad resale value as this article points out

Article is wrong. The prices for used vehicles are quite good. Confirm yourself.

> literally having your head touch the car roof if you're over five foot eight and sitting in the back

Get a Model X if Model S is too small for you.

> can you please give us a rational reason except zero tailpipe emissions for buying a Model S over, say, a Mercedes S-class or a BMW 7-series?

I'm not a huge fan on the S, prefer the X.

1. Twice the storage of an ICE vehicle. No engine block = FRUNK.

2. Safety. It is the safest vehicle on the road. Period. Because there is no engine block slamming in your face during a front-end collision.

3. I never have to go to a dirty gas station again. I fill up at home.

4. No oil changes. No transmission failures. Fewer moving parts = less maintenance needed.

5. American designed, American built, no $$$ going to questionable oil interests.

6. That center console? Fucking awesome. Enjoy your 8 inch joke.

7. Over-The-Air software updates that actually add useful features. No, I don't need to go to the service center to update my software. LOL!

8. It drives itself? Autopilot! Nice!

9. It parks itself. Even parallel parking. Will even open the garage, drive itself in, and then close the garage after itself.

10. Supercharger network. Free juice all over the country and beyond. Fills up in 20-30 min.

I can keep going, but I think you get the gist.

> Tesla will even refuse to sell you parts

Ok. Ever hear of eBay?

> call you talking about industrial espionage, if you try and tinker with their cars

Don't fuck with cars that drive themselves. Please.

> Seriously, WTF?

I wouldn't mind having more control over software updates and generally having more control over the vehicle, but I understand why they made the decisions they did. If you don't, it's because you were never driven in an autonomous vehicle.

Tesla FTW.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#274
post #171

This sounds a lot like the open vs closed system debate we had/(have?) with computers. I'm glad that in my youth I could wrench on the internals of a PC and I'm glad that in my 30s I never have to because my Mac 'just works'. Also, this debate is older than I am: http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenance-Inquiry...

The PC v MAC is an interesting parallel. Sure you can mod your pc and fix it yourself, just like most cars today. You also need very specialized skills and could ruin your whole system (Car or computer). Mac on the other hand, you can't really mod, but it just works and thats good enough for most people. The difference is cars need regular maintenance and computers don't. The author is claiming maintenance on Tesla's…

http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt...

Consumer Reports claims that Tesla does not have high reliability. Defective drivetrains are far more common than they should be.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#275

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

The most WTF part of that article to me was "if hackers are able to find a way to unlock the 40kwh versions to hold a 60kwh charge (which are physically identical batteries limited by software)" ...Seriously?

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#276

> A lot of Tesla fans claim that electric vehicles are inherently superior, because with fewer moving parts, they'll be able to stay on the road basically forever - no piston rings to wear, no transmissions to fail, no oil to change. There are at least two major components that "wear out" in power electronics - capacitors and power transistors. Traditional vacuum-impregnated motor winding insulation also has a wear-o…

Those voids also allow the wiring of the windings to flex slightly under the changing magnetic flux leading to eventual insulation failure.

Most big-ass transformers also produce an audible hum, meaning something is moving enough to push air around.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#277
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not uncommon for modern ECU's to need to be "coded" to work with the car.

Yes, and if there's a problem with your car that needs an ECU firmware update ... you tend to have to have that done by an authorized dealership.

Not if the update is released. You can buy a cable from China and download the software to do the update.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#278

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

The most WTF part of that article to me was "if hackers are able to find a way to unlock the 40kwh versions to hold a 60kwh charge (which are physically identical batteries limited by software)" ... Seriously?

Ah, another youngster who didn't hear the one about the IBM mainframe upgrades done by moving a jumper.

P.S. it's kind of funny that people who make a living from the sale of goods with zero marginal production cost (i.e. additional copies of a program) get weirded out by "pay-by-value" from hardware manufacturers ...

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#279
post #13

This is a good place to share this with geeks who may not be into cars: I drive a 1994 Mercedes (W124 chassis). One of the most reliable cars ever made. Simple to repair yourself. A TON of info available online for anything you could want to fix. Pretty much (probably 100%) of all parts on the car are available super cheap as chinese replacements because the model was around for so long and so many of them are still…

> FAR FAR more environmentally friendly than a new Tesla

Are you referring to this sort of analysis?

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/33wqgm/calcula...

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#280
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to be a car mod enthusiast to have a desire to use a business you trust and have a good relationship with to repair the property you own.

I would wager that the vast majority of non-enthusiasts do not have a "business they trust and have a good relationship with" that isn't the dealer.

This does not comport with my experience, but I'm not sure there are reliably studies on the matter.
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