Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#101

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 11:22 PM UTC

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

Sorry to further dogpile on your comment, but I just realised what it is that bothers me with discussions of IQ and race: it's that IQ is a proxy. It's a stand-in for something we can't directly observe and therefore cannot measure, or even fully define.

Which means, it's _very_ difficult to see how "IQ" itself would be an inherited trait, seeing as it's not a trait at all. It's not even a thing at all. All that IQ is, entirely literally, is a score on some test that some people have taken.

I mean, I hope it's obvious how it's completely ridiculous to believe that you can pass on your score at a test to your offspring, right?

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#102

Post by michaelbuddy » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 11:24 PM UTC

mlkjr wrote: post #57

michaelbuddy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what systemic problem though? I'm hearing systemic a lot and it's more often looking suspiciously like a way to create a ghost that can't be fought so let's throw more money at any and every program to make a show of it.

How would you know if it is a ghost or not? Would statistics help? I don't think there any tangible statistics on ghosts, are there?

There's no reliable examples. That's what I'm saying, people say "Systemic" when really it means nothing when you drill down to the meat of how things are. In fact when you look closer you find the more forces and initiatives towards inclusion within the system. For example for years we've had minority and female only STEM initiatives. Both on their own, and included within other organizations as part of greater educational pushes.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#103

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 11:28 PM UTC

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

[deleted]

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#104

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 11:31 PM UTC

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #93

homogeneous wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also telling that "genetically inherited IQ" always happens to appear in discussions about "race", as if our crude racial classifications represent semantically meaningful genetic variations as it relates to general intelligence. Whatever role genetics play in IQ are most certainly not manifested in the concentration of melanin in one's skin or the coarseness of one's hair or the color of one's eyes or the size…

"Whatever role genetics play in IQ are most certainly not manifested in the concentration of melanin in one's skin or the coarseness of one's hair or the color of one's eyes or the size of one's nose or any of the other crude heuristics we use to group people up as "races"." You are making the case that intraracial facial structures all resemble each other, but internally how people are connected (brain structure) do…

[deleted]

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#105

Post by tzs » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 11:32 PM UTC

knowaveragejoe wrote: post #45

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

HBD has been generally disregarded as bunk science. I have yet to see anything otherwise that isn't on some vaguely conspiratorial and mostly self-referential blog somewhere.

What is HBD?

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#106

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 11:32 PM UTC

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

>> So only physical characteristics are heritable?

See my point above - physical characteristics are directly observable, and therefore, measurable. Mental, emotional etc psychological characteristics are not directly observable, so are only measurable through a proxy.

In the case of intelligence, the proxy is an IQ test and we don't even have a good definition of what it is we're proxying, so it might not even be a single characteristic, but rather the combination of many traits.

So yeah, we can say very safely that you can get your eyes or your height from your parents, but not so about your IQ.

Corollary, maybe you can inherit your _intelligence_ but since we don't have a good definition of that and no way to measure it directly, there's no solid ground to stand on arguing that this or that "race" has more or less of it. And the same goes for any other group, really.

Full disclosure: I'm interested in this discussion too, mostly because I believe the whole idea of IQ measurements is bogus to begin with.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#107

Post by michaelbuddy » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 11:33 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #49

michaelbuddy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what systemic problem though? I'm hearing systemic a lot and it's more often looking suspiciously like a way to create a ghost that can't be fought so let's throw more money at any and every program to make a show of it.

You know, the kind of systemic that kept them legally segregated until the sixties -- that is, their parents time, and de facto segregated until today. Or the kind of systemic that ensures their school districts are poorer and underfunded. Or the kind of systemic that ensures you take the middle of the road when a black guy in a hoodie walks towards you in the same sidewalk.

Sure thing, so do me a favor, point to one of these under funded minority students - because from what I read, the dept of education figures point to more money per pupil spending on black and hispanice students vs white across the united states regionally and in total - http://www.heritage.org/~/media/images/reports/2011/04/bg254...

Now if you can refute the source, I think that's great because I have a hard time believing it myself given the common narrative. One argument might be that somehow the amounts of money given somehow are squandered other ways, but that doesn't discount the amount given, it would point to the system where it's squandered not the funding itself.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#108

Post by geebee » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 11:34 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #17

bobosha wrote: post #6

It amazes me that "..they discovered that many black and Hispanic students, unlike white and Asian ones, had never heard of this type of interview and were unprepared for it..." How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? I think that statement encapsulates it. No only are the schools they are graduating from are woefully inadequate, and they are entering a highly competit…

> How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? A lot of schools don't teach anything about interviewing. Its not academic. In fact, a lot of the training videos used in schools that do teach "job skills" to prepare students make no mention of white board interviews. They talk about being polite, wearing a suit, grooming, etc. Judging an academic program on if they have ever…

Maybe it's changed by now, but I was caught badly off guard by my first technical "interview" (exam) out of college. I thought it would be more or less a normal "interview", the tell me about yourself, your interests, your coursework kind of thing. I was completely unprepared for the whiteboard exam part of the interview, which was in C++ (Java was a brand new thing back then) and involved algorithms and data structures (just a linked list, mainly, but with pointers and so forth thrown in).

I failed it miserably. Honestly, the experience left me kind of embarrassed and metaphorically beaten up for a while. Kind of like I'd claimed to be a programmer and had been revealed to be a fraud.

By this point (almost 20 years later), I've been through this wringer so many times that it seems like common knowledge. It doesn't really bother me at this point. But now that I think of it, yeah, I was unprepared for this and unaware of it.

I'm used to this sort of thing now, but I still think it's an usual and really unpleasant part of our industry. Most knowledge based fields really don't have anything like this sort of interview/exam (seriously, it's almost a pure exam, I think that describing it as an interview is simply misleading to people who aren't aware of what goes on in our field) - though most fields have a more standardized set of credentialing and degree programs.

I do think that the mysterious, unpredictable, and stressful nature of tech exam interviews deters a lot of people from entering or remaining in this field.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#109

Post by mynameishere » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 11:35 PM UTC

falsestprophet wrote: post #3

Is working as a computer programmer economically rational for high performing black and hispanic students in the United States? Black and hispanic students benefit from preferential admissions standards to medical, law, business and other graduate schools that can lead to higher salaries and higher social standing than computer programming. Consider the extreme case of black students and medical school: Black student…

Medicine is a bad example. But AA hiring is a (non-illusory) systematic occurrence, and it's perfectly rational for high IQ blacks (who will get snapped up by any large corp) to aim for high-status, high-visibility roles such as administration, rather than squinting at a laptop for decades.

Of course, this is against the narrative, just as is pointing out that lots of people one generation away from medieval levels of poverty in Asia seem to be doing better than USA blacks.

At any rate, if a lack of diversity is prima facie racism, then here's a scoop:

http://www.nytco.com/board-of-directors/

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#110

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 11:37 PM UTC

fgandiya wrote: post #87

It's times like these when I think to myself why I'm bothering to enter this field? I mean, I really wanna go into the tech feel to make awesome stuff, but hearing how hard it is for people who look like me (black African college student in the mid west) just gets me down. Then again, software engineering has only been a thing for about 40-50 odd years and is young as compared to other professions, so I guess things…

Serious question: Do you want to go to Africa, where there are a lot more people who look like you? Or do you want to stay in the States, where there are (unfortunately) a number of people who are overtly racist, and a larger number who are more unconsciously assuming that it's a white person's world? I can't speak for you, but I suspect your answer is that there's enough good in the States that it's worth staying, problems and all.

Tech is like that. There are jerks, and there are racists, and there are abusive personalities. There are real, definite problems. It's still closer to a meritocracy than almost anywhere else. It's good enough that (to me) it's worth going into, problems and all. (Any individual situation may become toxic enough that you need to leave. But overall, I don't think it's bad enough to avoid, especially if that's where you would like to be.)