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Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

nytimes.com

11–20 of 152 posts

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#11

Is working as a computer programmer economically rational for high performing black and hispanic students in the United States? Black and hispanic students benefit from preferential admissions standards to medical, law, business and other graduate schools that can lead to higher salaries and higher social standing than computer programming. Consider the extreme case of black students and medical school: Black student…

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Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#12

It is vaguely mentioned in the article but I think controlling for the type of schools that students are exiting from is an important factor in determining if there is a "pipeline" problem. For example it was mentioned that Black and Hispanic Tech graduates are more likely to end up in office support roles. Out of the top 20 engineering/computer science programs in the country I doubt almost any students are ending u…

Occam's razor. Is there a problem in our entire society and schooling system, or are Black and Hispanic backgrounds a liability because of the views and attitudes they have/teach?

Occam's razor. Is there likely to be numerous smaller problems that are easy to ignore in all different areas of life, or few large easy to spot problems in one area of life?

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#13
Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have different inherent abilities?

EDIT: As a general statement (Please argue logically I am interested in the counterarguement):

Some how over thousands of years of almost complete separation, people managed to genetically grow different facial structures but stayed completely the same on the inside? So only physical characteristics are heritable? That's how evolution works?

The whole tenant of evolution is that great effective genes are passed on and reflected in offspring. By arguing that there is no genetic difference you are arguing that IQ cannot be passed on and that different environments did not select for and need different levels of IQ. If you are arguing that, then you are denying evolution as a theory.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#14

It is vaguely mentioned in the article but I think controlling for the type of schools that students are exiting from is an important factor in determining if there is a "pipeline" problem. For example it was mentioned that Black and Hispanic Tech graduates are more likely to end up in office support roles. Out of the top 20 engineering/computer science programs in the country I doubt almost any students are ending u…

Occam's razor. Is there a problem in our entire society and schooling system, or are Black and Hispanic backgrounds a liability because of the views and attitudes they have/teach?

There's an even simpler explanation you get when you control for upbringing. But instead we prefer Occam's Butterknife to the razor. (https://polymathblogger.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/occams-butt...)

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#15
It pains me greatly that the tech industry lacks diversity from minorities like blacks, hispanics, and women. However, I strongly believe that looking at the tech companies and asking why they don't hire more minorities is totally missing the real problem.

This is of course one datapoint, but the university I went to (top engineering school in the Northeast US) hosts a big panel for computer-field majors at the annual admissions event. Any students remotely interested in technical majors are invited to attend - you don't even need to be accepted to the university. The marketing for the event makes it as clear as possible that no prior programming experience is required, they just want to get people excited about computing. When I served on the panel as a CS student, I looked out the audience and saw a fully packed room (300+ people) of almost entirely white/Asian male prospective students and their parents. At that point, how do you recover and get diverse people? How do you get people interested when everyone showing up fits the same description?

In my view, the problem starts way before college/job seeking. I was lucky, as a white male, that my parents noticed and encouraged my technical interests at an early age. By the time I was entering college, I had years of programming experience, not even at any company, but just working on my laptop in my bedroom. It kills me that so many minorities and women never even get that opportunity. Parents of young girls don't seem to see/nurture those interests, and sometimes actively encourage them not to go into technology. It makes perfect sense that later they're not interested in pursuing college/careers in computers.

I have worked at companies where the people doing hiring have literally whispered (since it is illegal to say so) that they are desperate to hire minorities and women. I once heard someone say, "Man, I would love to hire this person, but I have to be fair, and if they were male I would have rejected them immediately".

Yes, tech companies need to be as accepting as possible towards minorities and women. Yes, minorities and women need role models in the industry. But we've got to start at the source at the problem and get parents to allow their children to be interested in computers in the first place!

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#16
I think the article mixes non-tech hiring problems with tech problems. I think tech is one of the only fields where your skin color really does not matter. We hire people from far-flung countries who can barely communicate in english; we hire 17-year-olds who have not even finished highschool; we hire total misfits; etc., based solely on their technical expertise. So it bothers me to read crap like this:

Research has found that during hiring, managers are biased against black-sounding names on résumés, for instance, and interviewers weigh too heavily whether they’d want to hang out with someone.

This may happen in other jobs, but in my 20 years in tech, I have never seen this. Go to any good tech company, and see the odd folks walking about. And yet they'll have an issue with black or hispanic folks? I doubt it.

Network does play a role, I will agree. But what plays a bigger role is your technical chops; and it is very easy today to demonstrate your skills via SO or Github.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#17
post #6

It amazes me that "..they discovered that many black and Hispanic students, unlike white and Asian ones, had never heard of this type of interview and were unprepared for it..." How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? I think that statement encapsulates it. No only are the schools they are graduating from are woefully inadequate, and they are entering a highly competit…

> How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview?

A lot of schools don't teach anything about interviewing. Its not academic. In fact, a lot of the training videos used in schools that do teach "job skills" to prepare students make no mention of white board interviews. They talk about being polite, wearing a suit, grooming, etc.

Judging an academic program on if they have ever been exposed to a whiteboard interview is fairly silly. I never saw on in 20 years.

As to your last paragraph, I'm not sure what role culture would play in introducing people to whiteboard interviews. I guess I grew up in a different environment, but I don't remember any of my urban white friends extolling the annual whiteboard festival. I can see it being a economic function of better schooling though.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#18

I think the article mixes non-tech hiring problems with tech problems. I think tech is one of the only fields where your skin color really does not matter. We hire people from far-flung countries who can barely communicate in english; we hire 17-year-olds who have not even finished highschool; we hire total misfits; etc., based solely on their technical expertise. So it bothers me to read crap like this: Research has…

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Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#19

I think the article mixes non-tech hiring problems with tech problems. I think tech is one of the only fields where your skin color really does not matter. We hire people from far-flung countries who can barely communicate in english; we hire 17-year-olds who have not even finished highschool; we hire total misfits; etc., based solely on their technical expertise. So it bothers me to read crap like this: Research has…

> This may happen in other jobs, but in my 20 years in tech, I have never seen this.

It's typically called "culture fit".

EDIT: Not all culture fit is bad, I think it's important that people can work together. But it can easily disguise any number of subjective biases, many of which you may not be aware.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#20
post #5

Is working as a computer programmer economically rational for high performing black and hispanic students in the United States? Black and hispanic students benefit from preferential admissions standards to medical, law, business and other graduate schools that can lead to higher salaries and higher social standing than computer programming. Consider the extreme case of black students and medical school: Black student…

Medicine has many more barriers to entry: schooling, debt, etc. I'm a white high school dropout, but I got a developer position at age 27 after rushing through a CS degree later in live which took about ~3 years. I work 40 hours a week and get a very livable $100k+ salary plus stock and benefits with negligible student debt all things considered (~$30k). My point being, in a vacuum, getting on track to making a good…

You can do medical school with minimal to no debt from many state medical schools. No way any one rational should chose programming over medicine in terms of dollars per calorie spent working, given they can get admission to medical school. Chose it because you like programming and can't stand the sights and smells of medicine. Not for the money. An average doctor makes more than an average programmer, with better job security, and more prestige, more choice of where to live, less politics at work, less selling your soul for money. Even free time is improving. Many medical sub specialties now offer shift work, part time work etc.

Edit: there are literally medical gigs available where you can sleep all night and get paid $100 / hour while sleeping (specialty surgical hospitals, where many nights there may not be a patient overnight, but they require an md on site). Many emergency rooms in rural areas may not see 2 patients at night, but need an er doctor on site.

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