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Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#91

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

redthrowaway wrote: post #47

Why is it the responsibility of the companies to fix this? In the same way that it seems perverse that Apple is the one standing up to the USG on privacy, why do companies bear the moral responsibility for fixing social ills? The only way a company should be responsible for hiring underrepresented minorities is if there was a market inefficiency to be exploited. And even then, that's a responsibility to their shareho…

>> why do companies bear the moral responsibility for fixing social ills?

Er, because they're part of society?

And because in the case of giants of the corporate world, like Apple, Facebook and Microsoft, they actually do have the wherewithal to influence that society to a degree that even governments often don't?

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#92

Post by 1024core »

p4wnc6 wrote: post #23
1024core wrote: post #16

I think the article mixes non-tech hiring problems with tech problems. I think tech is one of the only fields where your skin color really does not matter. We hire people from far-flung countries who can barely communicate in english; we hire 17-year-olds who have not even finished highschool; we hire total misfits; etc., based solely on their technical expertise. So it bothers me to read crap like this: Research has…

I think a better response might be to say, depending on how strongly you evaluate the evidence, "Gee, my personal opinion about this might need to be revised or given less weight in light of broader trends and evidence." For example, bias against black-sounding names is a real thing. It doesn't really matter if you personally have seen it, or if you think you haven't seen it. It's still real and quantifiable. Most of…

> believe the data and not your gut.

Without considering where the data came from, under what assumptions was it collected, when was it collected, etc. how can you blindly lay faith in some "data"? I have some data which says N horses died on the streets of San Francisco last year; will you believe it? It just so happens that "last year" was 1895. Doesn't that make the "data" useless?

Show me any other major industrial sector where a 17-year-old can start a company and be bought out for $30MM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_D'Aloisio#Summly Show me where highschool dropouts can make more than Harvard MBAs.

Yes, tech has problems with gender or ageism; but skin color is hardly ever an issue. In fact, if it is, it is in the other direction. I had a friend who graduated from a top CS school and couldn't get a faculty position. The Chair at one department actually told him: if you were a woman or minority, I'd hire you right away.

BTW: I'm not implying that everything is great. But compared to other sectors, tech is actually a pretty decent place to be if you don't "fit in" into the convention.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#93

Post by is_it_worth_it_ »

homogeneous wrote: post #79
VerminOctopus1 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being downvoted because you're being a racist buffoon. Yes, there is genetic variation across traits, this is a fact. That said, we are all heavily influenced by our environments and to discount this incredibly formative factor of all human life is ridiculous. Culture, poverty, exposure to crime, and endless cycle of poor parenting, whatever it may be - there are a million things that can and DO get in the way…

It's also telling that "genetically inherited IQ" always happens to appear in discussions about "race", as if our crude racial classifications represent semantically meaningful genetic variations as it relates to general intelligence. Whatever role genetics play in IQ are most certainly not manifested in the concentration of melanin in one's skin or the coarseness of one's hair or the color of one's eyes or the size…

"Whatever role genetics play in IQ are most certainly not manifested in the concentration of melanin in one's skin or the coarseness of one's hair or the color of one's eyes or the size of one's nose or any of the other crude heuristics we use to group people up as "races"."

You are making the case that intraracial facial structures all resemble each other, but internally how people are connected (brain structure) does not follow the same pattern. Some how over thousands of years of almost complete seperation, people managed to genetically grow different facial strucutres but stayed completely the same on the inside? The whole tenant of evolution is that great effective genes are passed on and reflected in offspring. By arguing that there is no genetic difference you are arguing that IQ cannot be passed on and that different environments did not select for and need different levels of IQ. If you are arguing that, then you are denying evolution as a theory.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#94

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

50CNT wrote: post #66
bobosha wrote: post #6

It amazes me that "..they discovered that many black and Hispanic students, unlike white and Asian ones, had never heard of this type of interview and were unprepared for it..." How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? I think that statement encapsulates it. No only are the schools they are graduating from are woefully inadequate, and they are entering a highly competit…

I think that should be further specified. It's not just that culture matters, but cultural expectations and the environment that leads to. See, I listen to a lot of rap, or "black music". And differences in taste aside, some of the stuff is REALLY complex. Look at Nas, Tupac, or even more recently, Kendrick Lamar. The sheer amount of detail these guys put into their art makes me feel bad about myself as a programmer.…

"The only way out the ghetto, you know the stereotype Shooting hoops or live on the stereo like top 40".

That really makes me think. 20 years ago Biggie was saying "Either you're slinging crack rock or you got a wicked jump shot." I guess being on Top 40 is an improvement.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose!

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#95

Post by is_it_worth_it_ »

knowaveragejoe wrote: post #45
is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

HBD has been generally disregarded as bunk science. I have yet to see anything otherwise that isn't on some vaguely conspiratorial and mostly self-referential blog somewhere.

The whole tenant of evolution is that great effective genes are passed on and reflected in offspring. By arguing that there is no genetic difference you are arguing that IQ cannot be passed on and that different environments did not select for and need different levels of IQ. If you are arguing that, then you are denying evolution as a theory.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#96

Post by is_it_worth_it_ »

aikah wrote: post #88
is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

> Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? What are you saying? are you really saying the lighter the skin the more "intelligent" one is? Ceteris paribus ? you know it's ridiculous and you know where this kind of "pseudo-scientific" ideology leads. > Is that why we hide the truth, What truth ? racism ? Ask yourself ,did you come to that conclusion after researching the topic or where…

It's actually a little embarrassing how much I know about the topic. I find evolution interesting. The more I study and understand, the more I am astounded by people's chosen ignorance on this topic. It's a harsh reality with far reaching consequences. But living as if it isnt true is just as harmful to our society. As things progress it will be increasingly hard to cover up and ignore. I am very curious what will happen at that point.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#97

Post by redthrowaway »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #91
redthrowaway wrote: post #47

Why is it the responsibility of the companies to fix this? In the same way that it seems perverse that Apple is the one standing up to the USG on privacy, why do companies bear the moral responsibility for fixing social ills? The only way a company should be responsible for hiring underrepresented minorities is if there was a market inefficiency to be exploited. And even then, that's a responsibility to their shareho…

>> why do companies bear the moral responsibility for fixing social ills? Er, because they're part of society? And because in the case of giants of the corporate world, like Apple, Facebook and Microsoft, they actually do have the wherewithal to influence that society to a degree that even governments often don't?

They also have the wherewithal to solve homelessness. Is that also their responsibility?

Corporations are, like Westphalian nation-states, explicitly amoral entities. The extent to which they behave morally is due to market and/or political pressure, not any inherent moral judgement.

Apple makes consumer devices. That's their business. They have a responsibility to make the greatest possible profit selling those devices. That's where their responsibility begins and ends.

Now, there are all sorts of moral dimensions that can affect their decisions. If their phones were made with slave labour, people might not buy them and talent might not want to work for them. But the reason Apple doesn't employ slave labour isn't because it is a moral entity; it isn't. Apple doesn't employ slave labour because doing so would hurt its bottom line.

If you want companies to behave in an ethical fashion, you need to align legal, social, market, tax, and other incentives in order to push them in that direction. Expecting them to do so out of the goodness of their hearts is quixotic: they have no hearts with which to be good.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#98

Post by eip »

uncletaco wrote: post #90
eip wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blacks make up 13% of the population in the US but 75% of NBA players and 67% of NFL players. Do you think white peoples under representation in US pro sports is more due to genetics or environmental influence? Having worked in Sillycon Valley for a long time I think it's funny/sad how the whole scene pretends to be PC about race and diversity issues when pretty much all the tech employees there are white or Indian m…

> What's even funnier is that white people are only a small percentage of world population but have the audacity to refer to all other races as 'minorities'. I am fairly certain that is because they are often referring to other races in their own countries. If you live in the US, most of your news is about North America and Europe, both continents that are predominantly filled with white people.

A pretty large percentage of Americans would refer to a black person born and living in Africa (or any other continent besides the Americas) as African-American. So you may be giving them more credit than they deserve.

I would bet a large percentage of Americans couldn't identify their home state on a map of the world.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#99

Post by uncletaco »

mtviewdave wrote: post #27
bobosha wrote: post #6

It amazes me that "..they discovered that many black and Hispanic students, unlike white and Asian ones, had never heard of this type of interview and were unprepared for it..." How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? I think that statement encapsulates it. No only are the schools they are graduating from are woefully inadequate, and they are entering a highly competit…

>How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? These are students. I would not expect them to start their education knowing about whiteboard interviews. At some point, all of us professional software developers were ignorant about how interviewing worked, and then we learned. The question is: why are black and hispanic students not reaching this level of understanding at the…

There was a recent Bloomberg article that really resonated with me when it came to recruiting companies.

High Tech companies rarely recruited at my school (an HBCU) and when they did, they would send some a random manager to talk about diversity, not a recruiter.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#100

Post by michaelbuddy »

coldtea wrote: post #49
michaelbuddy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what systemic problem though? I'm hearing systemic a lot and it's more often looking suspiciously like a way to create a ghost that can't be fought so let's throw more money at any and every program to make a show of it.

You know, the kind of systemic that kept them legally segregated until the sixties -- that is, their parents time, and de facto segregated until today. Or the kind of systemic that ensures their school districts are poorer and underfunded. Or the kind of systemic that ensures you take the middle of the road when a black guy in a hoodie walks towards you in the same sidewalk.

So you're blaming the 60s, 70s and 80s for kids who grew up in the 2000s and don't code now?

Because I don't know a single person who is in the field of IT whose parents were in IT. Positions barely existed until the 90s.

No one has yet explained why even segregation today in some part of the country is affecting ethnic groups NOT interested or apt in coding to the level of getting the jobs.

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