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Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#71

Post by rockarage »

bobosha wrote: post #6

It amazes me that "..they discovered that many black and Hispanic students, unlike white and Asian ones, had never heard of this type of interview and were unprepared for it..." How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? I think that statement encapsulates it. No only are the schools they are graduating from are woefully inadequate, and they are entering a highly competit…

Have you ever tried working at fast food joint in the summer? You can work hard in the kitchen in KFC and push yourself to work even harder in the hot summer months, but that won't lead you to a better job. Students who work hard at school that does not prepare them for the current working environment, will not fair better either. Hard work and pushing yourself more does not always lead to success.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#72

Post by kamau »

aikah wrote: post #61
kamau wrote: post #21

Interesting how many people here think that the problem rests solely with Black/Hispanic students. I am a black software engineer. As I see it, there are systemic problems, as you can imagine. But one reason that may be missed here is that sometimes people get weary of being the "only black person in the room". So some of the students may be opting out simply because they want a more diverse workplace, and tech is ve…

> the "only black person in the room" I can't begin to understand how it is an issue, and I'm black (and European). I don't care about the color or the sex of my coworkers. What difference does it make? you can't relate to white people? No the main issue is networking and going out of one's own "sphere" or microcosm. > So some of the students may be opting out simply because they want a more diverse workplace If they…

> I can't begin to understand how it is an issue, and I'm black (and European). I don't care about the color or the sex of my coworkers. What difference does it make? you can't relate to white people? No the main issue is networking and going out of one's own "sphere" or microcosm.

Read my comment later, where I mentioned that I have more white friends than black friends. I have no problem with white people. And no, I don't care about the color or sex of my coworkers. Instead, I was describing a very real phenomenom which may have been overlooked in the article.

> If they really like programming then they should worry about programming first and foremost, not how diverse is their environment. But maybe it's because of my upbringing, when I was the only black in a class of 30 students, I didn't have the time or any interest in worrying about the "blackness" of the classroom. I didn't have the time to worry about my tastes being "black" or white or whatever.

Not sure if you or I should say what those students should be worrying about. I think you may be missing my point. I made no mention about what those students should do. Instead, I talked about what they may be doing.

> Sure, people trust their kin more, and you talking about being "only black person in the room" is in my opinion the expression of that fact.

Actually that came from my personal experience (and that of many other POC) of trusting people who are not my kin, and then having race be brought up in a way that was detrimental to me.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#73

Post by chroma »

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

For such a controversial topic, you're being very cavalier. If you just butt-in with overconfident assertions and fail to cite any sources, you can expect to get downvoted for racism.

More importantly: Even if you're right, it can also be true that blacks and hispanics suffer from discrimination. Better to err on the side of helping the disadvantaged than to use an excuse like, "Eh, most of them aren't as smart as us."

Lastly, I prefer Gwern's response to the race & IQ debate.[1] The whole topic is radioactive. The best course of action is to stay silent. Eventually, gene sequencing will get cheaper and the data will be overwhelming (in support of one hypothesis or the other).

1. https://www.gwern.net/Mistakes#iq-race

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#74

Post by bsder »

duaneb wrote: post #41
protomyth wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? A lot of schools don't teach anything about interviewing. Its not academic. In fact, a lot of the training videos used in schools that do teach "job skills" to prepare students make no mention of white board interviews. They talk about being polite, wearing a suit, grooming, etc. Judging an academic program on if they have ever…

> They talk about being polite, wearing a suit, grooming, etc. Yikes, that's even worse. Some cultures will actively hold a suit against a candidate. I can't say I agree with that, but it's a little scary that they're giving stock advice to a highly dynamic field, very little of which is relevant. (Polite is good, being relaxed is better. Being suited is good, being comfortable is better.)

> Some cultures will actively hold a suit against a candidate.

Most places I've been wouldn't hold this against a new grad.

However, some places might hold this against a more senior person as being tone deaf toward the position he's going to be in. Nevertheless, I might wear a suit if the CEO, CTO, etc. was going to be part of my interview loop. But, I'll probably ditch the jacket and tie for the VP of Engineering.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#75

Post by zephharben »

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #52
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HBD has been generally disregarded as bunk science. I have yet to see anything otherwise that isn't on some vaguely conspiratorial and mostly self-referential blog somewhere.

Really? Scientifically it has been proven over and over. It just isn't mainstream.

"Scientifically it has been proven ... It just isn't mainstream" - the presence of these words, in this precise sequential order, has been empirically demonstrated to indicate that the author is a crackpot.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#76

Post by [deleted] »

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #52
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HBD has been generally disregarded as bunk science. I have yet to see anything otherwise that isn't on some vaguely conspiratorial and mostly self-referential blog somewhere.

Really? Scientifically it has been proven over and over. It just isn't mainstream.

[deleted]

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#77

Post by eip »

VerminOctopus1 wrote: post #30
is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

You're being downvoted because you're being a racist buffoon. Yes, there is genetic variation across traits, this is a fact. That said, we are all heavily influenced by our environments and to discount this incredibly formative factor of all human life is ridiculous. Culture, poverty, exposure to crime, and endless cycle of poor parenting, whatever it may be - there are a million things that can and DO get in the way…

Blacks make up 13% of the population in the US but 75% of NBA players and 67% of NFL players.

Do you think white peoples under representation in US pro sports is more due to genetics or environmental influence?

Having worked in Sillycon Valley for a long time I think it's funny/sad how the whole scene pretends to be PC about race and diversity issues when pretty much all the tech employees there are white or Indian males.

What's even funnier is that white people are only a small percentage of world population but have the audacity to refer to all other races as 'minorities'.

I don't know any good solution to systemic race/diversity issues other than making mushrooms legal and mandatory.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#78

Post by kamau »

bobosha wrote: post #67
kamau wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have to imagine. I've been the first or only Black person in more than one company. I'm already the change I want. I'm just waiting for the rest of y'all (not necessarily you) to catch up.

Then you should know better than computing black:white ratios. How's that an issue? I too am a racial minority in my team and my color has never has been an issue. It becomes an issue if you consciously make it one (as you did ITT)

Good for you. I mean that sincerely. I've personally had my color be an issue at 2 different jobs. I left those jobs. The reason that I mention ratios is that I think that people (all people) behave better in more diverse environments. And that sometimes when ratios are skewed one way or another, those in the majority can be a bit tone deaf to others. Just an observation of human nature. If you think race is too hot of an issue, or one that you think could never be a possibility, imagine another line : gender, class, income, neighborhood, etc. I'm sure that eventually you'll see what I mean.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#79

Post by homogeneous »

VerminOctopus1 wrote: post #30
is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

You're being downvoted because you're being a racist buffoon. Yes, there is genetic variation across traits, this is a fact. That said, we are all heavily influenced by our environments and to discount this incredibly formative factor of all human life is ridiculous. Culture, poverty, exposure to crime, and endless cycle of poor parenting, whatever it may be - there are a million things that can and DO get in the way…

It's also telling that "genetically inherited IQ" always happens to appear in discussions about "race", as if our crude racial classifications represent semantically meaningful genetic variations as it relates to general intelligence.

Whatever role genetics play in IQ are most certainly not manifested in the concentration of melanin in one's skin or the coarseness of one's hair or the color of one's eyes or the size of one's nose or any of the other crude heuristics we use to group people up as "races".

Still, even with a racial component to genetic IQ, we know that "tech" is not some enlightened trade where only high IQ employees are considered, outside of the elite firms like Google, Apple etc you're going to find a glut of pretty average programmers and plenty of idiots to boot.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#80

Post by ThrustVectoring »

fixermark wrote: post #60
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, what? Tech companies aren't obviously the correct place to be applying leverage. They could already be hiring more women and minorities than you'd expect given STEM interest levels in high school. If the fundamental problem is that something is happening to people before graduating high school, I'd take a much more critical look at schooling, child-rearing, and cultural factors. Schooling is particularly worrying…

I think you're misunderstanding: I'm not talking about tech companies changing their hiring goals. I'm talking about tech companies reaching out to schools (college, high school, middle school level) to get a sense of what they need and to help them give students the opportunities to pursue computer science and other technological careers based on their interest. There's a knowledge and understanding gap on both side…

>I'm talking about tech companies reaching out to schools (college, high school, middle school level) to get a sense of what they need and to help them give students the opportunities to pursue computer science and other technological careers based on their interest.

And if you want that to happen, you need to set up incentives such that it's in tech companies best interests to do so. You can't just say that things would be better if something were to happen - identifying problems is the easy part. Identifying what needs to change and how to change it is the hard part.

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