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Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#21

Post by kamau »

Interesting how many people here think that the problem rests solely with Black/Hispanic students. I am a black software engineer. As I see it, there are systemic problems, as you can imagine. But one reason that may be missed here is that sometimes people get weary of being the "only black person in the room". So some of the students may be opting out simply because they want a more diverse workplace, and tech is very very white. Just take a look at this thread, in which we have jimmywagner asserting that Black and Latino people are liabilities, and michaelbuddy asserting that systemic issues are "ghosts". They are of course entitled to their opinions (however much I may disagree with them), but honestly that type of hostility masked as objectivity gets old really quick.

I can expand later if anyone is interested in a real conversation.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#22

Post by staunch »

duaneb wrote: post #19
1024core wrote: post #16

I think the article mixes non-tech hiring problems with tech problems. I think tech is one of the only fields where your skin color really does not matter. We hire people from far-flung countries who can barely communicate in english; we hire 17-year-olds who have not even finished highschool; we hire total misfits; etc., based solely on their technical expertise. So it bothers me to read crap like this: Research has…

> This may happen in other jobs, but in my 20 years in tech, I have never seen this. It's typically called "culture fit". EDIT: Not all culture fit is bad, I think it's important that people can work together. But it can easily disguise any number of subjective biases, many of which you may not be aware.

Where "culture" really means class. Lower class culture vs upper class culture. Poor people make non-poor people very uncomfortable. The bar scene in Good Will Hunting is such a good example.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#23

Post by p4wnc6 »

1024core wrote: post #16

I think the article mixes non-tech hiring problems with tech problems. I think tech is one of the only fields where your skin color really does not matter. We hire people from far-flung countries who can barely communicate in english; we hire 17-year-olds who have not even finished highschool; we hire total misfits; etc., based solely on their technical expertise. So it bothers me to read crap like this: Research has…

I think a better response might be to say, depending on how strongly you evaluate the evidence, "Gee, my personal opinion about this might need to be revised or given less weight in light of broader trends and evidence."

For example, bias against black-sounding names is a real thing. It doesn't really matter if you personally have seen it, or if you think you haven't seen it. It's still real and quantifiable.

Most of us should continue to be skeptical that statistical analyses about these things must be carried out robustly and stand up to statistical grokking ... but conditional on that, believe the data and not your gut.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#24

Post by falsestprophet »

kamau wrote: post #21

Interesting how many people here think that the problem rests solely with Black/Hispanic students. I am a black software engineer. As I see it, there are systemic problems, as you can imagine. But one reason that may be missed here is that sometimes people get weary of being the "only black person in the room". So some of the students may be opting out simply because they want a more diverse workplace, and tech is ve…

"tech is very very white"

Sure tech is generally non-black, but there are load of East Asians and South Asians. It's not exactly the Augusta National Golf Club.

There are a lot of places in corporate information technology in the US where tech is "very very" Indian and a white or black or hispanic person may very well be the only non-Indian (or even US citizen or permanent resident) in the room or on the team.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#25

Post by InclinedPlane »

kamau wrote: post #21

Interesting how many people here think that the problem rests solely with Black/Hispanic students. I am a black software engineer. As I see it, there are systemic problems, as you can imagine. But one reason that may be missed here is that sometimes people get weary of being the "only black person in the room". So some of the students may be opting out simply because they want a more diverse workplace, and tech is ve…

Not long ago there was a report that came out on the quality of work of women software engineers. Turns out it was significantly higher than for the average male software enginee. This is actually not a good thing, and many people came to the wrong conclusions about it. My reading is that women aren't being hired in software unless they can prove themselves to a higher standard than men. I suspect the same is true for lots of other groups (like blacks and hispanics).

There remains pernicious and not widely appreciated systemic bias in this industry, and until it's even acknowledged we're not going to have much luck in tackling it.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#26

Post by MollyR »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #25
kamau wrote: post #21

Interesting how many people here think that the problem rests solely with Black/Hispanic students. I am a black software engineer. As I see it, there are systemic problems, as you can imagine. But one reason that may be missed here is that sometimes people get weary of being the "only black person in the room". So some of the students may be opting out simply because they want a more diverse workplace, and tech is ve…

Not long ago there was a report that came out on the quality of work of women software engineers. Turns out it was significantly higher than for the average male software enginee. This is actually not a good thing, and many people came to the wrong conclusions about it. My reading is that women aren't being hired in software unless they can prove themselves to a higher standard than men. I suspect the same is true fo…

That report was highly suspect and HN had a large difference of opinion.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11102712

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11074587

I would really recommend this article http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-exci...

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#27

Post by mtviewdave »

bobosha wrote: post #6

It amazes me that "..they discovered that many black and Hispanic students, unlike white and Asian ones, had never heard of this type of interview and were unprepared for it..." How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? I think that statement encapsulates it. No only are the schools they are graduating from are woefully inadequate, and they are entering a highly competit…

>How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview?

These are students. I would not expect them to start their education knowing about whiteboard interviews. At some point, all of us professional software developers were ignorant about how interviewing worked, and then we learned.

The question is: why are black and hispanic students not reaching this level of understanding at the same rate as whites and Asians? Perhaps they're not doing internships at the same rate? Some other reason? Regardless, this question deserves a serious answer, and not a flip dismissal based on stereotypes about work habits.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#28

Post by abrahamepton »

jimmywanger wrote: post #10
zenplatypus wrote: post #2

It is vaguely mentioned in the article but I think controlling for the type of schools that students are exiting from is an important factor in determining if there is a "pipeline" problem. For example it was mentioned that Black and Hispanic Tech graduates are more likely to end up in office support roles. Out of the top 20 engineering/computer science programs in the country I doubt almost any students are ending u…

Occam's razor. Is there a problem in our entire society and schooling system, or are Black and Hispanic backgrounds a liability because of the views and attitudes they have/teach?

Having lived in our society and been educated by our schools: Yeah, there are societal problems and educational problems. Big, big, big problems.

Having gotten my ass kicked intellectually repeatedly by black and hispanic students: no, those backgrounds are not a liability.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#29

Post by lumpypua »

falsestprophet wrote: post #24
kamau wrote: post #21

Interesting how many people here think that the problem rests solely with Black/Hispanic students. I am a black software engineer. As I see it, there are systemic problems, as you can imagine. But one reason that may be missed here is that sometimes people get weary of being the "only black person in the room". So some of the students may be opting out simply because they want a more diverse workplace, and tech is ve…

" tech is very very white " Sure tech is generally non-black, but there are load of East Asians and South Asians. It's not exactly the Augusta National Golf Club. There are a lot of places in corporate information technology in the US where tech is "very very" Indian and a white or black or hispanic person may very well be the only non-Indian (or even US citizen or permanent resident) in the room or on the team.

Very very east Asian is also common.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#30

Post by VerminOctopus1 »

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

You're being downvoted because you're being a racist buffoon. Yes, there is genetic variation across traits, this is a fact. That said, we are all heavily influenced by our environments and to discount this incredibly formative factor of all human life is ridiculous. Culture, poverty, exposure to crime, and endless cycle of poor parenting, whatever it may be - there are a million things that can and DO get in the way of someone succeeding far, far before their genetics.
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