Live data from Hacker News

What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

gadgette.com

241–250 of 279 posts

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#241

Is this really a problem with Silicon Valley? I think it's an universal problem you'll find in all industries.

My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. I don't see where she says she ever even hinted to the manager that his actions were inappropriate. I suspect a single "cut that shit ou…

My mother also worked in a mostly-male field (programming) from the '60s on forward. She rebuffed people too in the same way that you are talking about -- it was the only way to survive as a female programmer at her company (she worked at the same company for her entire career). She was strong and didn't take bullshit from guys.

But over time she told me that it really wore her down and made her feel negatively about work. Even if people were stronger historically, it didn't mean that the environment was ok, or that it didn't really bother them.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#242
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, I can complement anyone I like. I don't need to have a pre-existing relationship to do so. What if the other person doesn't want to hear your opinion or complements regarding a personal quality of his/her, would you stop and keep it to yourself or just keep embarrassing yourself till someone puts you in your right place?

Well, if it is about me then I can take a hint. I don't need to step on the same landmine twice. Others might need an assist. The point being is that I don't need permission to tell someone something that I think is innocuous, such as a complement.

Are you in the habit of extending those innocuous compliments equally to both men and women?

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> she must have This is called "projecting".

Since you are just cherry-picking, I realize now you aren't actually interested in debate. One wonders why you even bothered posting your original comment.

I read an interesting article on a woman who had been raped (intercourse while sleeping, waking up in the middle) and for her (emphasis on that being the case for her) the worst thing was that everyone was telling her "You must be destroyed by this, right?".

Basically, what she thought was the worst thing about the whole thing was that everyone accentuated that she was now a worse version of herself since she had been raped.

This is sort of what you were doing when you said "She must've". It's probably not in anyone's interest to actually decide what another person can or should feel, so maybe that's a lesson that needs to be learned as well. Let someone express themselves and refrain from saying "He/she/you must...".

To add for clarification:

I'm not saying this is an argument against or for anything other than placing feelings on someone that they "must/should" have.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#244
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual harassment. I get the impression that the "victim" here is trying to take advantage of the situation. She never asks the inappropriate person to stop here, instead goes to HR. I mean just in plain words "Please don't, this is inappropriate." would stop most such behavior from happening again in huge majority of cases. 1. Your implicit dismissal…

1. Parent comment's dismissal is based upon details revealed in the article, or rather details that weren't revealed. He suspects that, since the victim escalated immediately, the victim may not have wanted a peaceful resolution. We don't have the full picture, but what we have suggests that there were other ways to handle it. 2. Yes, I expect you to say that you're upset by the situation. I cannot read your mind; mo…

> We don't have the full picture, but what we have suggests that there were other ways to handle it.

So it's safest to assume that the victim of sexual harassment is at fault, of course.

> because otherwise they may assume nothing is wrong.

So in this scenario, you're taking the stance that the Manager at Google has no concept that asking an inferior employee to sit on his lap could be unacceptable workplace behavior?

That doesn't seem like a generous read to you? You honestly think that this man, who has been working in a professional environment for at least a decade, was completely unaware that asking an employee to sit on his lap could possibly be construed as sexual misconduct?

So to review:

victim of sexual misconduct: obvious potential liar

perpetrator of sexual misconduct: blameless victim of ignorance

Got it.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#245
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if it is about me then I can take a hint. I don't need to step on the same landmine twice. Others might need an assist. The point being is that I don't need permission to tell someone something that I think is innocuous, such as a complement.

Are you in the habit of extending those innocuous compliments equally to both men and women?

i don't see how that would matter. Do women divvy up their complements equally between men and women? I bet not.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#246
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to get a coworker to sit on your lap and telling her about your sexual prowess is 100%, no room for uncertaintainty, sexual harassment. I'm not sure what minority you hail from, but if the environment you were raised in considers that "not sexual harassment" then you need to learn from this story and adjust your behavior appropriately to make sure you aren't sexually harassing in your workplace.

To be fair, in the write-up, she says she laughed at the sexual comments made by her manager. >I remember thinking to myself, “Did I do something to encourage this kind of behaviour?” I had uncomfortably laughed at some of the sexual comments my manager had made because I didn’t know how else to react as a junior member of the team. Should I not have done that? And the facts about her 'harassment' are covered in one…

> To be fair, in the write-up, she says she laughed at the sexual comments made by her manager.

No. That is neither a fair nor accurate paraphrasing of what the author said. That you would say this and then quote her is rather astounding.

She says quite clearly that she laughed uncomfortably because she didn't know how else to react.

> And the facts about her 'harassment' are covered in one sentence in the whole article.

She doesn't owe you or any other reader on the internet any fucking details whatsoever about her experience being harassed. You are nobody. She is not obligated to relive in excruciating details, the experiences she is referencing. She references the HR investigation. She explains how, in the context of the HR investigation--about which she rightly owes you no further details--she had to be:

> ...as specific as possible about all the infractions, the details, and the timelines. [She] had to recount any potential witnesses, for corroboration purposes. [She] felt humiliated. [She] cried.

There was disciplinary action with which she felt satisfied. HR departments don't typically take disciplinary action if they cannot find enough evidence to warrant such action.

Do you know what sexual harassment is?[1] A victim is not required to, and often is not comfortable, asking the person who is making their workplace uncomfortable to stop. HR exists precisely for these kinds of situations. The unwanted sexual harassment should not happen in the first place. It's not a victim's fault for deciding to go directly to HR.

Let's go ahead and review what occurred in one single week, as a new hire:

- kissed on the cheek

- asked to sit on her manager's lap

- offered unwanted details about her manager's sex life

- made the object of an apologist-style "Asian fetish"

So, out of curiosity, if you were a manager with a new female hire, who is an attractive Asian woman, help me understand ...

1. What context excuses and makes it not sexual harassment to kiss the new hire on the cheek uninvited? What light joke that wasn't specifically targeted at her did she miss when she was kissed on the cheek?

2. What context excuses and makes it not sexual harassment to ask a new female employee to sit on your lap? What light joke that wasn't specifically targeted at her did she miss when she was asked to sit on her manager's lap?

3. What context excuses and makes it not sexual harassment to divulge details about your sex life to your new female hire? What light joke that wasn't specifically targeted at her did she miss when she was told details of her manager's sex life?

4. What context excuses and makes it not sexual harassment to tell an Asian female employee that "all men go through an Asian fetish at some time"? What light joke that wasn't specifically targeted at her did she miss when she, an Asian woman, was told that all men have an Asian fetish? That is fucking textbook example of identifying a subject as the object of desire, then telling them they are the object of your desire, with disgusting apologist bullshit to try and make it not seem like you have any control over it.

All of this--and who knows, maybe more that wasn't divulged in the article--is sexual harassment. Even in cultures that kiss on the cheek, it's a token of familiarity not employed by strangers. SV does not have this culture. I've worked with a lot of different women over the years, in a number of professions. I've never kissed any of them on the cheek, uninvited or otherwise. I've dated a few women I've worked with, too--still never kissed any of them on the cheek in the workplace. Or asked them to sit on my lap. Or offered up details of my sex life. Or told them I had an X fetish, where they were clearly easily identified as X.

> And I am certainly not defending her manager...

You absolutely are.

---

[1] http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/fs-sex.cfm

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#247
> In hindsight and with more experience, I now can say, “Yes, I shouldn’t have tolerated even a little bit of misogyny or mistreatment. I should’ve immediately given him feedback that it made me feel extremely uncomfortable.” But regardless of my own reactions, the fact remains that sexual harassment should never have happened in the first place.

Women don't(in some cases: don't want) to realise that they can send out misleading signals, which itself would not be an issue if they would clarify their limits when a man does something inappropriate.

Men might do something physical without any bad intentions and women might interpret them otherwise.

Here is how I see it:

If someone violates your intimate space, send a subtle signal that it's not okay: move away, turn away or do a grumpy cat impression.

If the person does not understand the subtle signal, use words.

If words fail, contact the authorities.

I'd wish we could move away from the one dimensional "males in tech are sexist" angle onto something more scientific. However, judging by the tile of the post, we are galaxies away from that.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#248
post #188
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The really creepy part is not any particular of his unfortunate "advances", but the fact that he stubbornly continued them for few days despite the girl being completely turned off and freaked out by him. > "Please don't, this is inappropriate." would stop most such behavior from happening again in huge majority of cases. It depends. If there are witnesses, sure. But in private, the guy has a choice - treat this seri…

> but the fact that he stubbornly continued them for few days without noticing that the girl is completely turned off and freaked out by him. She says she laughed at the sexual comments made by her manager. > I remember thinking to myself, “Did I do something to encourage this kind of behaviour?” I had uncomfortably laughed at some of the sexual comments my manager had made because I didn’t know how else to react as…

She laughed uncomfortably because she didn't know how else to react.

Have you never uncomfortably laughed before? It's a pretty typical, and often automatic, reaction to situations for humans. It is also pretty easy to spot. It never ever means I'm totally cool with this; carry on.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#249
post #154
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"she has only been asked to sit on ones lap" In civil society, the expected standard is not that everyone is socially and martially capable and with a razor sharp wit. Unexpected things like these generally make people flustered and confused. If a person has not faced a situation like this before, it can be very hard to come by with a proper response. The situation is similar to being mugged, or tricked out of money.…

Yes, she may have not been confronted to such situation. She was new to grown up world. But such things happen generally during your education. And he may have misinterpreted her behavior.

Ah, good old victim-shaming!

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#250
post #178
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victim blaming.

No, I think she is a victim, but we are looking to the wrong culprit. She is a victim of her bad education that makes her feel like a victime more that someone with charisma and personality that could have easily respond. That is a big problem with women education.

> She is a victim of her bad education

No, she is the victim of a manager abusing his position of power in order to sexually harass her. Her education doesn't get into play here.

Post reply on HN