What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google • Hacker News Board

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#171

Post by hluska » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:15 PM UTC

sheraz wrote: post #133

hluska wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, that is bullshit. Simply, don't go out of your way to be an asshole. Genuine compliments are fine. Leering is wrong. Sexually suggestive comments or winks in emails are wrong. Don't treat anyone as a lesser form of life. This is so fucking simple and it makes for a better work environment for all.

No it is not bullshit. This whole topic is filled with loaded words like "harassment" and "victim." Furthermore, workplace harassment laws are tipped in the females favor. If she even perceives something, then it happened. If you think that sending a wink to someone is treating them as a lower life form, then I don't think there is much I can say...

You are wrong. Sexual harassment laws are somewhat tipped in the victim's favour, but only because law in general is tipped slightly in the victim's favour. This is not about laws favouring women, it is just about how the law works.

Simply, the victim's feelings matter.

There is a difference between a wink and a wink after something sexually suggestive. If you can't understand that difference then yeah, there's nothing else I can say.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#172

Post by thedz » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:16 PM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #143

Is the term "sexual harassement" appropriate here? It'd be interesting to hear the manager point of view on this issue. We have only one side of the story here. Maybe the manager genuinely thought this was a case of mutual flirting there. Or flirting in the workplace = sexual harassment? EDIT: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sexual+harassm... "A key part of the definition is the use of the word unwelcom…

General rule of thumb is that a manager should never flirt or make advances to his direct reports, because the power imbalance and potential for confusion there is just too great.

Even if it was mutual, HR would probably have moved either her or him to a different team if their relationship had progressed.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#173

Post by ethbro » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:16 PM UTC

nikcub wrote: post #88

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to write this comment pretty carefully to avoid vindicating the offender or blaming the victim. It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was uncomfortable (this is not her fault), and perhaps the offender was picking up on signals that weren't there. The situation needed to be fixed, but the behaviour mentioned in the article could have been more flirtatious than forced. A zero tolerance…

> It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was uncomfortable The default position should be to assume that everybody is uncomfortable with everything unless otherwise stated. It's like a good firewall policy - default block all and then explicitly allow.

If I assumed everyone at work was uncomfortable with everything I might say, then I would be the most boring coworker ever.

This isn't an absolute kind of issue.

If instead you meant "assume that everybody is uncomfortable with everything [approaching any kind of sexual tone]", then that's more realistic but simultaneously introduces a lot more gray area.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#174

Post by thedz » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:16 PM UTC

isnullorempty wrote: post #89

throwaway999888 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unacceptable because of the manager-subordinate relation. And you can't put the burden on women to actively signal that they are not sexually interested in a professional setting. That's at best a large distraction for them, and at worst very draining and emotionally damaging.

I meant if someone show interest not all the time, men can be dumb and are unable to detect subtle hints.

Are you actually using "I'm stupid and oblivious" as an excuse?

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#175

Post by Joeboy » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:17 PM UTC

nikcub wrote: post #160

Alex3917 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't, they use basically the same definition as the U.S. Read the link...

I did: > The EEOC has defined sexual harassment in its guidelines as: > Unwelcome sexual advances .. > Such conduct has the purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with an individual's work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment It's right in the first two lines - what am I missing?

You're missing the word "when" between the second and third of those lines. The third line restricts the scope of the second.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#176

Post by fsloth » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:18 PM UTC

y04nn wrote: post #154

fsloth wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"she has only been asked to sit on ones lap" In civil society, the expected standard is not that everyone is socially and martially capable and with a razor sharp wit. Unexpected things like these generally make people flustered and confused. If a person has not faced a situation like this before, it can be very hard to come by with a proper response. The situation is similar to being mugged, or tricked out of money.…

Yes, she may have not been confronted to such situation. She was new to grown up world. But such things happen generally during your education. And he may have misinterpreted her behavior.

Not an expert on the issue but I imagine if the approached party feels sullied it's a strong case of sexual harassment.

I'm not familiar with sexual predators but I presume the day-day activities are the same as any bullies that succeed in long careers - the offending behavior is subtle and low key, but continuous.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#177

Post by spoiler » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:19 PM UTC

thedz wrote: post #165

zupreme wrote: post #153

I'm not so sure about this one. I think sexual harassment and direct flirtation can become confused depending on the perspective of the recipient. Men have been making advances toward women throughout history and, perhaps to a lesser extent, women do the same toward men. Far more workplace flings happen than any company (and even many employees) will admit and it often starts with one party or the other making their…

> It's telling that the female HR person felt that she was overreacting. At no point in the article does she mention the manager touching her inappropriately, or saying anything to imply that her job or compensation depended on her accepting his advances. It was a female colleague, not HR. According to the article, HR was fully behind her, as they should be. > This honestly sounds like he was a guy who got attracted…

My friend was in the same position about a year ago, and she told her boss (directly, and in private conversation) that she's not interested, after he didn't interpret a few other subtle hints. She still works there.

Furthermore, she the boss and some other colleagues were cracking jokes about it during a team building event that I was invited to.

Edit: I realise this is anecdotal, but it feels to me like the author of the blog post immediately assumed she's a victim and panicked. Maybe the manager should've been more observant, but pointing fingers is useless without knowing what really happened. We only have her account of the story, which is probably distorted by the discomfort she experienced. This is not to say her discomfort shouldn't be taken into account, and yes I agree that HR should've sided with her, but I don't believe he should've been seriously sanctioned either.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#178

Post by y04nn » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:19 PM UTC

skj wrote: post #122

y04nn wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like she is lacking self confidence, personality. Is she living in a fantasy world where everybody is kind? I was not here, so I don't want to juge, but she has only been asked to sit on ones lap, she could have strongly refuse and asked why she would do that in the first place. She should have shown strong signs of rejection, express the fact that is make her uncomfortable and asked him to stop. If he does no…

Victim blaming.

No, I think she is a victim, but we are looking to the wrong culprit. She is a victim of her bad education that makes her feel like a victime more that someone with charisma and personality that could have easily respond. That is a big problem with women education.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#179

Post by sheraz » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:23 PM UTC

hluska wrote: post #171

sheraz wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it is not bullshit. This whole topic is filled with loaded words like "harassment" and "victim." Furthermore, workplace harassment laws are tipped in the females favor. If she even perceives something, then it happened. If you think that sending a wink to someone is treating them as a lower life form, then I don't think there is much I can say...

You are wrong. Sexual harassment laws are somewhat tipped in the victim's favour, but only because law in general is tipped slightly in the victim's favour. This is not about laws favouring women, it is just about how the law works. Simply, the victim's feelings matter. There is a difference between a wink and a wink after something sexually suggestive. If you can't understand that difference then yeah, there's nothi…

And there in lies the problem -- we are legislating about "feelings."

We have delegated to the state what our personal responsibility should have been all along.

"Hey, asshole -- keep it in your pants or I will tell the whole office that you went through an Asian-fetish. Now can we discuss this TPS report or not?"

Secondly, a wink after something sexually suggestive is a little redundant, wouldn't you say?

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#180

Post by moomin » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:23 PM UTC

lagadu wrote: post #14

moomin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women who leave seem to think it's worse in tech. Pretty solid data point.

That's a pretty terrible data point because of how biased it is. It's like saying that everyone who abandoned a certain film halfway says the film is bad and concluding that most people in general hate the film: your data points are coming from a group who almost exclusively hated the film in the first place: they're not representative of the entire population.

Well, Ashe Dryden's pretty much debunked this whole line of reasoning better than I ever can. So I'll point you at that

https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/dissent-unheard-of

If you're still unconvinced, you might want to start examining your own sample bias.