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What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

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Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#181

Post by 4k »

daveguy wrote: post #159
4k wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am member of a minority, and have had more than one chance to go to the HR to report "being racially abused" and present the narrative in such a way that anyone would be convinced it was horrible. Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual harassment. I get the impression that the "victim" here is trying to take advantage of the situation. She never asks the inappropriate person to stop…

Trying to get a coworker to sit on your lap and telling her about your sexual prowess is 100%, no room for uncertaintainty, sexual harassment. I'm not sure what minority you hail from, but if the environment you were raised in considers that "not sexual harassment" then you need to learn from this story and adjust your behavior appropriately to make sure you aren't sexually harassing in your workplace.

To be fair, in the write-up, she says she laughed at the sexual comments made by her manager.

>I remember thinking to myself, “Did I do something to encourage this kind of behaviour?” I had uncomfortably laughed at some of the sexual comments my manager had made because I didn’t know how else to react as a junior member of the team. Should I not have done that?

And the facts about her 'harassment' are covered in one sentence in the whole article.

> In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility, and told that “all men go through an Asian fetish at some time,”

She doesn't provide any context and keeps it as vague as possible. If you think about it, all/most of those things could have been light jokes that weren't specifically targeted to her. And I am certainly not defending her manager, but I still maintain that she did use this situation to her advantage. Getting a promotion, writing about it several years later in an attempt to promote her current startup.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#182

Post by isnullorempty »

pc86 wrote: post #164
isnullorempty wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at someone is harassment now? I must have harassed hundreds of women then, What about thinking about them?

If you are leering at someone day in and day out that is harassment. Is that really a difficult point to understand? I'm not talking about a glance because a woman is wearing a new shirt. That's not harassment, nobody ever said it was, and asserting otherwise is a straw man. But ogling the hot girl every day is .

Only if it's someone you aren't interested in, if a hot guy you liked made eye contact a few times and smiled it would make your day. Am I right?

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#183

Post by danso »

zupreme wrote: post #153

I'm not so sure about this one. I think sexual harassment and direct flirtation can become confused depending on the perspective of the recipient. Men have been making advances toward women throughout history and, perhaps to a lesser extent, women do the same toward men. Far more workplace flings happen than any company (and even many employees) will admit and it often starts with one party or the other making their…

You really need to re-read the article. The female HR person did not feel she was "overreacting":

> During the HR investigation that ensued, I remember being shamed by a female colleague who thought I was blowing the situation out of proportion. She thought I was being overly sensitive, and that it was wrong of me to report my manager. That hurt. I thought she would’ve naturally supported me.

While there is no explicit mention by the author of her saying, "I told him to back off", there's also nothing to imply that she accepted her manager's advances: i.e. that she went to dinner with him alone, or actually sat on his lap.

Reporting to HR is not a "fiasco". It is always difficult -- for the reasons the author states -- to deal with advances by a superior. Not just because of fears of losing her job, but also of self-doubt about hurting the company. Pushing back against him beyond not sitting on his lap leads to fear of retribution. HR is as close to a third-party as she can get for this, and the main question is how it could have been headed off earlier.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#184

Post by qb45 »

4k wrote: post #140
qb45 wrote: post #4

> In the span of a week, I went from feeling excited and motivated about my job to feeling lethargic, anxious, and unenthused. (...) I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility (...) There exists a breed of narcissists who are so incapable of tolerating rejection that they will consistently ignore every sign of it. In fact, the less you are satisfied with…

I am member of a minority, and have had more than one chance to go to the HR to report "being racially abused" and present the narrative in such a way that anyone would be convinced it was horrible. Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual harassment. I get the impression that the "victim" here is trying to take advantage of the situation. She never asks the inappropriate person to stop…

The really creepy part is not any particular of his unfortunate "advances", but the fact that he stubbornly continued them for few days despite the girl being completely turned off and freaked out by him.

> "Please don't, this is inappropriate." would stop most such behavior from happening again in huge majority of cases.

It depends. If there are witnesses, sure. But in private, the guy has a choice - treat this seriously and feel bad about what he'd just done or try to downplay it as a tease and continue hitting on her expecting that "things will work out". Some choose the former, some choose the latter. Some really go to great lengths to avoid admitting they are wrong.

Then there is also the question, whether somebody who behaves as if he couldn't even tell if a girl is into him or not should actually be managing a team of people.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#185

Post by aws_ls »

nikcub wrote: post #88
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to write this comment pretty carefully to avoid vindicating the offender or blaming the victim. It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was uncomfortable (this is not her fault), and perhaps the offender was picking up on signals that weren't there. The situation needed to be fixed, but the behaviour mentioned in the article could have been more flirtatious than forced. A zero tolerance…

> It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was uncomfortable The default position should be to assume that everybody is uncomfortable with everything unless otherwise stated. It's like a good firewall policy - default block all and then explicitly allow.

>It's like a good firewall policy - default block all and then explicitly allow.

It reminded me of the veil (no offence to any culture). And I am sure you don't imply that. But if you advocate the other extreme, then there is always the risk of it going extreme in other direction.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#186

Post by Jean-Philipe »

zupreme wrote: post #153

I'm not so sure about this one. I think sexual harassment and direct flirtation can become confused depending on the perspective of the recipient. Men have been making advances toward women throughout history and, perhaps to a lesser extent, women do the same toward men. Far more workplace flings happen than any company (and even many employees) will admit and it often starts with one party or the other making their…

No, your view is not valid. Assuming you actually read the article, you probably didn't read this part:

"In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility, and told that “all men go through an Asian fetish at some time,” among other wildly discomfiting, work-inappropriate things. Then I was asked to dinner alone."

That racist comment alone is reason enough to get the manager fired right away, let alone the rest of that list.

And no, she doesn't need to say "No. I'm not interested. Leave me alone." She doesn't even have to say that.

Don't even start using "throughout history" as a justification for anything. A lot of bad things happened throughout history.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#187

Post by leaveyou »

exo762 wrote: post #69
leaveyou wrote: post #25

What an uplifting story. Sexual harassment is a serious problem affecting women all over the world. I'm glad that more and more people speak up.

If you think that women are somehow immune to this behaviour you are very naive. Stereotype of older women superior hitting on young men has not appeared from thin air.

From my wife's experience, older women superiors are way too busy making the professional life of younger women a living hell and they don't have much time and energy left to harass young men.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#188

Post by 4k »

qb45 wrote: post #184
4k wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am member of a minority, and have had more than one chance to go to the HR to report "being racially abused" and present the narrative in such a way that anyone would be convinced it was horrible. Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual harassment. I get the impression that the "victim" here is trying to take advantage of the situation. She never asks the inappropriate person to stop…

The really creepy part is not any particular of his unfortunate "advances", but the fact that he stubbornly continued them for few days despite the girl being completely turned off and freaked out by him. > "Please don't, this is inappropriate." would stop most such behavior from happening again in huge majority of cases. It depends. If there are witnesses, sure. But in private, the guy has a choice - treat this seri…

> but the fact that he stubbornly continued them for few days without noticing that the girl is completely turned off and freaked out by him.

She says she laughed at the sexual comments made by her manager.

> I remember thinking to myself, “Did I do something to encourage this kind of behaviour?” I had uncomfortably laughed at some of the sexual comments my manager had made because I didn’t know how else to react as a junior member of the team. Should I not have done that?

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#190

Post by gotchange »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #47
eklavya wrote: post #29

Why does nobody seem to be bothered with the apologize and continue as usual outcome? Shouldn't there have been serious implications for the sexual offender?

I have to write this comment pretty carefully to avoid vindicating the offender or blaming the victim. It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was uncomfortable (this is not her fault), and perhaps the offender was picking up on signals that weren't there. The situation needed to be fixed, but the behaviour mentioned in the article could have been more flirtatious than forced. A zero tolerance…

> perhaps the offender was picking up on signals that weren't there.

Who would ask his love interest to sit on his lap at work?

Do you really think that this is appropriate for even lovers in the workplace?

Even if there was something going there between them, it's unprofessional to flirt and fool around while working. Call me old school or what but we have weekends and off-work hours for these types of activities and everyone should make use of them accordingly.

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