Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm recently graduated B.Sc in compsci and I'm doing software testing and to me 30k/year is plenty. It really is. However in Silicon Valley cost of living is so expensive that earning 100k/year still makes you relatively not all that better off. Where I live most of senior software engineers make around 30k/year with higher cost of living than in the US (excepting hotspots such as SV/SF/NY/...). People who have spe…
Just because you have a >1,000,000 mortgage debt that sucks up a lot of your salary doesn't make you a millionaire. Its if you have > 1 mill in liquid assets that you are a millionaire.
All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class
161–170 of 288 posts
Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
I really like your point about pubs. Your point about mass immigration is good too, though I think it omits the impact that automation and outsourcing have already had on employment. Not so sure about your view on marriage, though. Are you saying your son shouldn't marry because, if he finds a girlfriend and has children, marriage would disadvantage him should they ever divorce?
I've been happily married for 22 years but I guess I've been lucky. It's certainly the ideal, which is why I want it for my daughters. However I could also tell horror stories about male friends who married, divorced, and subsequently lost most of their property whilst simultaneously having to fight just to get access to their children. Difficult when you've lost your house and most (or all) of your savings. If you a…
I think visitation rights are genuinely an area where men have it worse. That said, I know plenty of women who didn't do well out of divorce. My mother was divorced for much of my childhood, and so were many of her friends. Several of the ex-husbands fiddled their income such that they paid minimal support while having enough money to go gallivanting around the world.
Thanks for sharing, in any case. It's all food for thought -- and clearly, something needs to be done about visitation rights.
Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
Completely off-topic, but whenever I see these amounts I feel like either I don't understand how U.S. economy works or I've been living in poverty my whole life. I'm recently graduated B.Sc in compsci and I'm doing software testing and to me 30k/year is plenty. Like I have money to buy all kind of unnecessary stuff for my hobbies. Is 30k/year really low salary in U.S.? Or am I just being under paid? I always though m…
The U.S. economy is geographically spread out and enormous . However, due to various historic reasons, the population is mostly focused at the coasts, and for other historic reasons, the north-west and north-eastern coastal areas are the wealthiest and densest. More people and more money means more demand and higher prices. In the rest of the country, which is fairly sparse, you can find high standards of living, min…
Note that the average local more or less intentionally can't afford the time or money to visit the tourist traps. If you are not rich and want to visit the museums and galleries of Chicago, or attend a Bears game at the stadium, or a music concert, you can't live in Chicago because then you'd be too poor, you have to live elsewhere and visit.
What dense, expensive, low standard of living areas provide, is extremely dense employment. No matter how unique your job is, there's dozens to thousands of positions within walking distance of your current employer. In the more rural areas you'll see a lot more sinecure behavior, retired in place, people who've worked the same place for 20 years, nobody (such as yourself) gets promoted because the company doesn't grow and nobody quits, etc. Long term relationships are comfortable and lower stress on average, yet also less exciting and less adventurous, just like with love life.
There are also minor behavior constraints. If there's 50 companies all doing the same thing in a big city, then stack ranking basically wastes a lot of HR money pointlessly shuffling people every year, but at least its possible, whereas in a rural area especially if its a company town, stack ranking would rapidly destroy the company because the applicant pool is too small to sustain bad behavior. As a gross generalization people tend to spend far less time commuting in rural areas than urban, but the rural commute has more (high speed) miles so it is more expensive, in the city a twice a day rush hour commute might waste more than two hours of precious life per day, but at least its short therefore cheap, whereas in the country it'll be a comparatively lightning fast 30 minutes each way, but at 80 MPH and 50 cents per mile, that'll be an expensive 40 mile daily commute. City people are amazed how much rural people spend on their commute, rural people are amazed how much time city people spend on their commute.
Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
>What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? You need to think much more basic than that: Success is having a savings account, a roof over your head in a safe stable location so the kids can stay in the same school, reliable transportation, and a job that provides enough income for all of the above.
I don't like defining "success" as some kind of bare minimum. Success is, at least, being better than average.
Can't feel safe, or the higher levels, if you don't have the money for food or medical care, etc.
Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would you be more sad if her salary went up to $15/hour (~2x), but yours went up to $210/hour (~3x, assuming you started from $70 ~= 10 x $7)? If this would not make you sad, then inequality isn't really the problem.
In terms of relative buying power, going from $7.50/h to $15/h is a much bigger jump than going from $70/h to $210/h. This is sort of a sick twist on the idea that "the house always wins" or "the market can remain illogical longer than you can remain solvent": at lower incomes, it sometimes only takes one car maintenance, one unexpected trip to the dentist, before you have to start picking and choosing what bills to…
Note that the article assumes poor white people all have salaried jobs with great medical insurance plans, or at least get sick pay. Of course they don't.
Therefore the article doesn't understand that lots of people fall into the trap of not fixing something when its small, and instead end up lowering the average lifespan.
Look at, say, alcohol addiction. Lack of medical coverage means if you got treatment your whole family would get the economic death penalty via direct and indirect costs, ruining all their lives, or you can auger in and ruin just yours. Either way, all outcomes of addiction are decreasing average life span.
Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've been happily married for 22 years but I guess I've been lucky. It's certainly the ideal, which is why I want it for my daughters. However I could also tell horror stories about male friends who married, divorced, and subsequently lost most of their property whilst simultaneously having to fight just to get access to their children. Difficult when you've lost your house and most (or all) of your savings. If you a…
I... don't know. I think visitation rights are genuinely an area where men have it worse. That said, I know plenty of women who didn't do well out of divorce. My mother was divorced for much of my childhood, and so were many of her friends. Several of the ex-husbands fiddled their income such that they paid minimal support while having enough money to go gallivanting around the world. Thanks for sharing, in any case.…
I think one of the reasons I have a successful marriage is that when we first got together we had absolutely nothing and were just struggling to survive. Everything we achieved has been an improvement that we have done together.
Too many people nowadays seem to expect perfection from Day One and when that doesn't happen they take the easy way out by walking away.
I find it interesting that there is a negative correlation between having a honeymoon and having a successful marriage. People get married with an enormous party and then go on the holiday of a lifetime. They come back and it's all downhill from that point.
By contrast we had a 2-day coach mini-break to Scotland.
I was Best Man (and my wife Matron of Honour) for our closest friends. Their honeymoon was three nights in a tent on the East Coast (of England).
Another friend went into debt having a massive holiday in the Maldives, (against my advice - I was his Best Man also). He is now divorced. Compare and contrast.
Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I personally disagree that college is the solution. Some people lack the financial stability required to excel in what is essentially a long, expensive vacation learning things that won't directly impact their earnings. Which is why like I said, it needs to be greatly reduced or preferably free.
Let me clarify that excellence in college is expensive, even if tuition is waived, at least the way it's currently structured. It's very, very hard to get good grades while working enough hours to support yourself, especially if you have no skills (and even affluent college students rarely have marketable skills).
As romantic as it is to tell tales of how we bootstrapped ourselves through college, working off hours and earning our way, it's stupid to demand the next generation do it out of some misguided sense of tradition. We have the capability to make it better for our kids, why the hell aren't we?
Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I personally disagree that college is the solution. Some people lack the financial stability required to excel in what is essentially a long, expensive vacation learning things that won't directly impact their earnings. Which is why like I said, it needs to be greatly reduced or preferably free.
The problem is that if it's free, the standards for admission will need to be much higher. Free and open to anyone won't work.
Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class
#169It's been obvious for a decade that the "go to the factory every week for 40 years and retire" job sector is on the decline, a decline which has accelerated rapidly more recently. There is no place in our economy for a bolt turner to earn $25 an hour, end of discussion. This is why I like the idea of at least reducing the cost of a college education, or preferably eliminating it. A regular high school degree is quick…
There's a big gap between high school and a full bachelor's degree. AA degrees, trade schools, etc. Agreed that mindless automated jobs are a dead end. I'd like to see a 2 or 3 year trade school for programming and other useful trades - with low costs. Something suitable for people who aren't interested in higher ed, but do want a decent trade in life.
Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
Completely off-topic, but whenever I see these amounts I feel like either I don't understand how U.S. economy works or I've been living in poverty my whole life. I'm recently graduated B.Sc in compsci and I'm doing software testing and to me 30k/year is plenty. Like I have money to buy all kind of unnecessary stuff for my hobbies. Is 30k/year really low salary in U.S.? Or am I just being under paid? I always though m…
The U.S. economy is geographically spread out and enormous . However, due to various historic reasons, the population is mostly focused at the coasts, and for other historic reasons, the north-west and north-eastern coastal areas are the wealthiest and densest. More people and more money means more demand and higher prices. In the rest of the country, which is fairly sparse, you can find high standards of living, min…