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All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

theatlantic.com

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Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#21

Post by lkrubner »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #14
bitL wrote: post #11

As a non-american I would like to ask: did the affirmative action go too far up to the point of endangering another group? If so, what correction steps would you take?

As an American my impression is blue collar white working class Americans decided they'd rather give up the benefits of unionized employment in return for not having to give up the racially based pecking order.

Absolutely. We can repurpose the old quote from Winston Churchill "We had the choice between war and shame. Now we have chosen shame – we’ll get war later."

Shameful behavior was the choice of the USA's white working class: They had the choice between prosperity without racism, or immiseration with the continuance of racism. They chose the latter. They voted against pro-growth policies because those policies were promoted by a political coalition that was also committed to extending prosperity to every citizen, regardless of race.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#22

Post by greggman »

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #7

I think it's worth pointing out that education is a filtering mechanism, if a terribly inefficient one. After basic maths and literacy are learned, it imparts little on the average student. A collage degree is a proxy for a reasonable IQ and moderately high conscientiousness. Thinking of education as an inefficient filtering mechanism helps illustrate why our frenzy for more education is misguided. Certainly more eff…

But more panning in more places finds more gold does it not?

Maybe I misunderstood your point. Stories like that of Jaime Escalante suggest that there's a huge number of undiscovered talent and/or that better teaching makes more talent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Escalante

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#23

Post by Spooky23 »

bitL wrote: post #11

As a non-american I would like to ask: did the affirmative action go too far up to the point of endangering another group? If so, what correction steps would you take?

Affirmative action is a non issue, a straw man at best.

The plight of the working class is about free trade and reprioritizing economic policy. Union busting sent business to the South, NAFTA sent it packing.

Now even high end service jobs are at risk. A local hospital voted to unionize, and immediately afterwards the ER fired everyone and ships in visiting nurses from 400 miles away. It keeps the local labor hungry and costs down in the long term.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#24

Post by smt88 »

FussyZeus wrote: post #18
smt88 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally disagree that college is the solution. Some people lack the financial stability required to excel in what is essentially a long, expensive vacation learning things that won't directly impact their earnings. I vehemently believe in liberal arts and the importance of people studying philosophy/literature/etc., but studying impractical things is a luxury. Other countries have robust retraining programs, so…

> I personally disagree that college is the solution. Some people lack the financial stability required to excel in what is essentially a long, expensive vacation learning things that won't directly impact their earnings. Which is why like I said, it needs to be greatly reduced or preferably free.

Let me clarify that excellence in college is expensive, even if tuition is waived, at least the way it's currently structured.

It's very, very hard to get good grades while working enough hours to support yourself, especially if you have no skills (and even affluent college students rarely have marketable skills).

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#25

Post by smt88 »

ehnto wrote: post #19
smt88 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally disagree that college is the solution. Some people lack the financial stability required to excel in what is essentially a long, expensive vacation learning things that won't directly impact their earnings. I vehemently believe in liberal arts and the importance of people studying philosophy/literature/etc., but studying impractical things is a luxury. Other countries have robust retraining programs, so…

I also hate to add this to the conversation, but not everyone has the drive and inclination to do anything but bolt turning. So when bolt turning peters out, they won't suddenly find their higher calling in advanced application and design of bolts and fasteners. What they will do instead is hard to know, welfare, unemployment, early retirement they probably can't afford. Maybe a foray into boutique bolt turning, char…

> not everyone has the drive and inclination to do anything but bolt turning

I think one of your implications is that some people are just too lazy to work at a skilled job.

I'd guess that this problem is much rarer than people suppose. Financial stability is a very strong motivation to work hard. It's also true that low-paying jobs almost never allow people to be lazy! It's absolutely exhausting and miserable to work in restaurants, production lines, cleaning, etc.

The key is mobility. Some of those bored, disengaged bolt turners might make enthusiastic, happy electricians. But transitioning from bolt turner to electrician is expensive, and usually turning bolts won't pay for that.

That's where society comes in: governments, nonprofits, and perhaps some corporations lubricate the labor market by making it easier for workers to switch into positions that suit them better. That lubrication comes in the form of subsidized education and/or temporary living expenses.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#26

Post by greggman »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #14
bitL wrote: post #11

As a non-american I would like to ask: did the affirmative action go too far up to the point of endangering another group? If so, what correction steps would you take?

As an American my impression is blue collar white working class Americans decided they'd rather give up the benefits of unionized employment in return for not having to give up the racially based pecking order.

This is a new concept to me. Do have any good references for this I could read up on?

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#27

Post by ams6110 »

maxmax wrote: post #17
meric wrote: post #10

What is society's ideal for the average white working class? What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? Is it getting to live in a very expensive nursing home when they retire? Is it equality where both husband and wife are responsible exactly 50% in finances, chores and taking care of the kids? Or have the time & money to spend a lot more time with the kids; Will welfare help…

>What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? You need to think much more basic than that: Success is having a savings account, a roof over your head in a safe stable location so the kids can stay in the same school, reliable transportation, and a job that provides enough income for all of the above.

I don't like defining "success" as some kind of bare minimum. Success is, at least, being better than average.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#28

Post by ams6110 »

FussyZeus wrote: post #18
smt88 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally disagree that college is the solution. Some people lack the financial stability required to excel in what is essentially a long, expensive vacation learning things that won't directly impact their earnings. I vehemently believe in liberal arts and the importance of people studying philosophy/literature/etc., but studying impractical things is a luxury. Other countries have robust retraining programs, so…

> I personally disagree that college is the solution. Some people lack the financial stability required to excel in what is essentially a long, expensive vacation learning things that won't directly impact their earnings. Which is why like I said, it needs to be greatly reduced or preferably free.

The problem is that if it's free, the standards for admission will need to be much higher. Free and open to anyone won't work.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#29

Post by sliverstorm »

ams6110 wrote: post #27
maxmax wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? You need to think much more basic than that: Success is having a savings account, a roof over your head in a safe stable location so the kids can stay in the same school, reliable transportation, and a job that provides enough income for all of the above.

I don't like defining "success" as some kind of bare minimum. Success is, at least, being better than average.

Agreed! Everyone should enjoy success, and success is being better than average.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#30

Post by danieltillett »

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #7

I think it's worth pointing out that education is a filtering mechanism, if a terribly inefficient one. After basic maths and literacy are learned, it imparts little on the average student. A collage degree is a proxy for a reasonable IQ and moderately high conscientiousness. Thinking of education as an inefficient filtering mechanism helps illustrate why our frenzy for more education is misguided. Certainly more eff…

Education alone does tend to make people better neighbours.

There is true value in education, but unfortunately the only market demand is for people who are intelligent, conscientious and educated in certain fields. Hit all three and you are in demand otherwise a life of dead end jobs awaits you.

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