Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say • Hacker News Board

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#271

Post by tinco » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:29 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #141

philwelch wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guns and grenades are not that hard to get, even in Europe. The limiting factor is how many people are willing to lay siege to a concert hall and calmly execute a hundred people, and whether some of those people were let in under the guise of "refugees".

> Guns and grenades are not that hard to get, even in Europe. Not hard to get, but when you're talking about dozens of assault rifles, someone somewhere will know what is going where. If your intelligence people are worth their salt, of course. > whether some of those people were let in under the guise of "refugees". Yeah, because it's extremely effective to drop your people for months in a Turkish refugee camp, hopi…

With 'good passports' there is a good chance the passports were French, and not so much an infiltration as a return to home. Young people coming from poor segregated communities who are vulnerable to radicalization seem ideal tools for this kind of home-turf attack. In the Netherlands the (Italian) organised crime employs this same group, so there could be your access to smuggled arms.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#272

Post by rythmshifter » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:29 AM UTC

littletimmy wrote: post #161

The war on terror has been going on for 15 years now - are there more terrorists in 2000 or 2015? Sooner or later, we will have to come to the realization that terrorism cannot be eliminated by force. Stop destabilizing Arab countries, stop imperial interference in Northern Africa, and perhaps we'll see an end to this nonsense.

I'm curious, under what logic would this stop or get any better if we allow the cancer to grow?

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#273

Post by toast0 » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:29 AM UTC

VMG wrote: post #244

rquantz wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorism is usually a rational act. It is terrible, but it has political goals. This, for instance, may be aimed at ending the European involvement in Syria and their taking in refugees.

It has had a 0% success rate of achieving political goals http://www.gwern.net/Terrorism%20is%20not%20about%20Terror

How much of that is because when terrorists achieve their political goals, we call them revolutionaries, resistance, freedom fighters, and sometimes insurgents. Only unsuccessful terrorists keep that label.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#274

Post by dang » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:29 AM UTC

All: when commenting here, as anywhere on HN, kindly remain civil and substantive. Religious slurs are not allowed, nor are personal attacks.

We've closed this thread to noob accounts because of trolls. If you've got a new account and want to comment here, feel free to email hn@ycombinator.com.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#275

Post by scrollaway » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:29 AM UTC

iMark wrote: post #252

scrollaway wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there stems the entire problem with islam from. A lot of people killing "in its name"; more often than not, where that is just abused as an ideology to rally more marginalized people to the cause. We'll never be able to stop those that abuse religions and causes for political gain, but we can starve their number of "soldiers" by not giving impressionable people more reasons to hate a country.

I don't believe Islam is fundamentally different than Christianity. Present day interpretations aside, I believe both share a similar DNA. I believe the solution is to look inward (as I've already, "do no harm"), rather than to condemn outwards. And yes, I'm willing to concede the naiveté of my viewpoint.

I agree, I hope my comment was not misinterpreted. Most muslims believe in "do no harm", and every single one I've talked to thinks those terrorists are the exact opposite of true muslims.

Those attacks done "in the name of islam" create islamophobic reactions from people. Media spreads this islamophobia further, to people who just trust whatever they see on TV. The climate grows to marginalize muslims further. The ones closest to the edge, who were surrounded by violence in the past (war climates) and are now surrounded by hatred from the country they live in, end up knowing only violence and seeking to be understood by their own violence.

The cycle of terrorism. We enable it. What can you do once you understand it? Tell other people? You'll be silenced. You'd get shit on on facebook. Attacked on twitter. Downvoted on reddit. HN is still a sane place but what % of the population does that really represent? Can it even make a change? And it's not like you wouldn't ever get downvoted here. There's a lot of people who believe in the direct "more immigrants = more terrorists" idiocy.

Today is such a fucking depressing day. Having to worry about my sister, my brother, my guild mates and on top of that seeing the attackers get exactly what they want: more fear. More knee-jerk reactions.

Let it fucking end...

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#276

Post by utku_karatas2 » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:30 AM UTC

coldcode wrote: post #173

Right now we don't know who these people are, where they came from and what their aims were (besides terror). Of course terror is exactly this, you don't know, you imagine the worst, and everyone reacts, often pointlessly. I wonder why France?

Not to sound condescending, but if you're remotely interested about mid-east politics it is pretty easy to see what tonight was about. It is about Syria.

Pretty much all the world powers have vested interests in Syria. Russia has started to intervene in Syria very recently. NATO is there from the beginning. There is Iran, Turkey, Saudis, Israel, you name it.

There was supposed to be a G20 event tomorrow (will probably get postponed) and the hot topic was supposed to be Syria. What happened a few hours ago is just diplomacy played with blood.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#277

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:30 AM UTC

usaphp wrote: post #224

Svip wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he might be talking about Stalinism. Or at the very least, just Stalin.

So you think Stalin was as bad as ISIS and Nazis? edit: Why downvotes? I've asked a question, I wonder how western people see Stalin in history. I as Russian see him as the one who was involved in defeating Nazis

Stalin, to use a popular term, topped the charts for quite a while. Compared to him these ISIS clowns are rank amateurs.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#278

Post by imaginenore » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:30 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #241

imaginenore wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam soils the reputation of islam. It has a massive problem of large percentages of Muslims supporting (or being okay with) violence and terrorism. 42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall). http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-ameri...

> Islam soils the reputation of islam. No slurs, please. We've already banned one account for turning this thread into a religious flamewar. Comments here need to stay factual.

I did stay factual, I even provided a link.

If you're going to restrict speech, restrict all mentions of religion, not just the ones that contradict your preconceived notion.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#279

Post by toyg » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:30 AM UTC

clock_tower wrote: post #189

rquantz wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorism is usually a rational act. It is terrible, but it has political goals. This, for instance, may be aimed at ending the European involvement in Syria and their taking in refugees.

It used to be rational, rather. The classic terrorists of the '70s wanted "a lot of people talking but not a lot of people dead" -- and also wanted to survive the experience. The new breed of terrorism in the '80s and '90s was different from those; the IRA, the PLO, and various state-sponsored terrorists in that period had/have more in common with each other, despite their obvious differences, than any have with al-Q…

> neither Naziism nor Communism believed that success was a sign that Divine Providence was smiling on them.

You didn't study your history, comrade! Communist orthodoxy believed in a historical inevitability that overlapped very closely with a sort of man-made Divine Providence. The Nazis had their own set of religious and spiritual motivations, their racial destiny and so on.

They differed from Abrahamic religions in the sense that they expected "victory" in this world and in their time, as opposed to vague posthumous compensations and end-of-times prophecies; but they did believe in a "greater power" manifesting itself in their successful deeds.

> backing down in Syria will only embolden them.

That's a false dichotomy. The problems in Syria won't go away with bombs, and it was manifestly stupid for Hollande to join the party willy-nilly, especially after having experienced first-hand the inefficiency of his security apparatus. What is needed is a real agreement between the real power brokers (Turkey, Saudi, Russia, Iran) to cut off the crazies for good. We need hard diplomacy, not hard policies.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#280

Post by clock_tower » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:31 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #190

rquantz wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorism is usually a rational act. It is terrible, but it has political goals. This, for instance, may be aimed at ending the European involvement in Syria and their taking in refugees.

I think it is actually the opposite. They are trying to provoke a christian involvement in Syria so that they can claim it is a cruisade and recruit more fighters in the muslim world. It is usually how terrorism work. IRA or ETA were doing exactly the same.

If they're trying to provoke Christian involvement in Syria, they've succeeded; Pope Francis has called on the community of nations to restore order in Syria and suppress ISIS, and has stopped just this side of explicitly calling a crusade...