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Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

nytimes.com

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Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#181

Post by vox_mollis »

fein wrote: post #60
sosborn wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically, the French security system has been revealed as completely ineffective. How can a country possibly prevent these things while still maintaining a free society?

Arm your citizens. Edit: Seems HN would rather die on their knees. Shame.

HN is indeed increasingly pro-helplessness. My personal hypothesis is that it's actually merely a second-order effect. The community tends toward pro-specialization which leads to the tenet that personal security ought to be conducted by specialists.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#182

Post by greedo »

x1798DE wrote: post #67
zxcvcxz wrote: post #40

I've seen a lot of HNers suggesting that we must over react and ramp up the war on terrorism. I'm all for cutting off immigration, but how will ramping up the wars do us any good? I don't see how another ten years "fixing" things is going to work.

How will cutting off immigration do anything? I think it's important to realize that this is something that happens and that you don't necessarily have to do anything . If you get a cold, you don't quarantine your block and divert your life savings to rhinovirus research, you just deal with it and try and take sensible precautions about hygiene.

Equating this with a cold virus is the height of imbecility. Governments have a responsibility to protect their citizens. The scope of this protection is up for debate, but ignoring it is not a choice that most citizens will tolerate.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#183

Post by lazaroclapp »

bedhead wrote: post #152
rquantz wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorism is usually a rational act. It is terrible, but it has political goals. This, for instance, may be aimed at ending the European involvement in Syria and their taking in refugees.

It is only "rational" within an irrational construct, such as extreme religious devotion.

No. It can be rational in the context of anti-colonialism and sovereignist ideology and historical revanchism, as well as many other not at all irrational ideologies. It might or might not be effective, depending on the specific political goals in question. It is not, in general, about religion per se, except in so much as religion is part of group identity (in a similar vein as say, nationalism).

But that is not the point. Targeting civilians for political purposes is not an act of insanity, but it is an unacceptable means, no matter the ends.

(Not saying that the ends are good in this case, nor the opposite. It just really doesn't matter.)

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#184

Post by Ygg2 »

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #110
bronson wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We tried to stabilize Iraq, now we have ISIL.

Arguably, we gave up on stabilizing Iraq and pulled out too quickly, angering the Sunni tribes who were counting on the U.S. to protect them from the majority Shi'ite government. Once they saw the U.S. military bailing out, they began allying with Sunni extremists and gave ISIS a fertile soil in which to take root.

US has been mostly used as a very expensive bludgeon to deal with internal enemies.

You don't like your local police officer, call him terrorist and see the world's most expensive bludgeon deal with him. Don't want to deal with rebellious village? Tell Americans they are terrorists.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#185

Post by tomphoolery »

rquantz wrote: post #134
bedhead wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are trying to rationalize with people who are irrational. They don't reconcile. It sucks. It's depressing.

Terrorism is usually a rational act. It is terrible, but it has political goals. This, for instance, may be aimed at ending the European involvement in Syria and their taking in refugees.

A lot of the time, terrorism is carried out by irrational people, but orchestrated by slightly more rational people. The people willing to risk their lives are not the same people that are convincing others to risk their lives. After all, if people like Sayyid Qutb actually risked his life, he wouldn't be able to convince other idiots to die.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#186

Post by gotchange »

bensandcastle wrote: post #162
gotchange wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's open but that doesn't mean that everyone who shows up at the gate will be allowed in, right?

There are no gates. There is a sign. http://travel.jeffersoncampervan.com/Pictures/PixoriginalSit... Cross border travel within the EU is like moving between states in the US, easy to miss.

What about airports?

I'm very positive that they check people's passports and papers in airports.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#187

Post by n0us »

rquantz wrote: post #134
bedhead wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are trying to rationalize with people who are irrational. They don't reconcile. It sucks. It's depressing.

Terrorism is usually a rational act. It is terrible, but it has political goals. This, for instance, may be aimed at ending the European involvement in Syria and their taking in refugees.

The data on terrorist attacks does not support this conclusion. Terrorism is rarely effective in its political goals and studies have concluded that it is not a rational or cost effective strategy.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#188

Post by ps4fanboy »

asasasasasas wrote: post #80
user_0001 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should be done? Bomb the hell out of the Syrians? Surely they have suffered enough. Iraq III? Maybe this time.... maybe.... Send the ground troops into Saudi? Quatar? Acknowledging that some of ISIS / Al-Qaeda gripes do have some merit, stop interfering in other countries affairs, stop propping up dictators because they are "our" dictator. Something else? Unfortunately for the Syrians, my money is on bomb the he…

What if we were to remove our dependence on foreign oil? Though fusion is a long way out, hypothetically, if we didn't have any reason to interfere and could just leave the Middle East to figure out its own problems, they wouldn't have a reason to see us as the enemy.

Wouldn't that destabilize the middle east even more?

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#189

Post by clock_tower »

rquantz wrote: post #134
bedhead wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are trying to rationalize with people who are irrational. They don't reconcile. It sucks. It's depressing.

Terrorism is usually a rational act. It is terrible, but it has political goals. This, for instance, may be aimed at ending the European involvement in Syria and their taking in refugees.

It used to be rational, rather. The classic terrorists of the '70s wanted "a lot of people talking but not a lot of people dead" -- and also wanted to survive the experience. The new breed of terrorism in the '80s and '90s was different from those; the IRA, the PLO, and various state-sponsored terrorists in that period had/have more in common with each other, despite their obvious differences, than any have with al-Qaida and ISIS, which aim for suicide missions with high body counts.

This particular operation is either ISIS-conducted or ISIS-oriented vigilanteism; whichever it is, backing down in Syria will only embolden them. (Or rather, embolden those like them; I don't imagine that very many of the specific attackers here are going to have particularly many opportunities to do this again in the future.)

ISIS is specifically out for either world empire or apocalyptic defeat (see http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isi... ); tactical concessions will work about as well as they did with the Nazis and the Communists -- or even less well than that, since neither Naziism nor Communism believed that success was a sign that Divine Providence was smiling on them.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#190

Post by cm2187 »

rquantz wrote: post #134
bedhead wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are trying to rationalize with people who are irrational. They don't reconcile. It sucks. It's depressing.

Terrorism is usually a rational act. It is terrible, but it has political goals. This, for instance, may be aimed at ending the European involvement in Syria and their taking in refugees.

I think it is actually the opposite. They are trying to provoke a christian involvement in Syria so that they can claim it is a cruisade and recruit more fighters in the muslim world. It is usually how terrorism work. IRA or ETA were doing exactly the same.
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