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What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

carryology.com

121–130 of 144 posts

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#121
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your numbers can't be faulted, but the risks might be overstated. Based on purely anecdotal evidence (several young Syrian men who ended up in Belgium) I can say that many of these guys do indeed have families they intend to bring over. Because of the danger and uncertainty of the journey, those who could stash their families somewhere relatively safe for a short while did so. They knew it would be easier for them to…

> taxes I was hoping that it wouldn't come down to that sort of thing - exploiting the refugees as a taxable resource. Because it seems kind of two-faced, to have Janus wear compassion/universalism on one side and to have taxing/demographic sustainability on the other side. Have some more goddamn kids.

We're all someone's cattle in some greater scheme. The community funds education and healthcare, not because we're nice people, but because there's a net benefit to having a healthy and educated workforce. It's cynical and sad, but also realistic.

> Have some more goddamn kids.

Volunteers for the bordercases EU breeding programme eagerly awaited! :)

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#122
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I guess those folks don't count. No. But what does helping poor countries have to do with regulation? > Is that a valid argument against eliminating mandatory discrimination? No. As usual you're attributing to me arguments I've never made. I would argue, though, that a person or a group of people have a higher moral responsibility towards a person or a group they've somehow helped reach their current condition.…

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to argue. I interpreted your post above as somehow opposing free trade in labor since "most people in the west prefer..." economic protectionism. If you were not, my mistake. As usual you're attributing to me arguments I've never made Why bring up "most people in $GROUP prefer" if that is not a valid argument in favor of a policy? I truly have no idea what you are trying…

I responded to your statement that "the best solution to this is of course ending the welfare state", and said that's been tried (in late 19th-century America) and wasn't too great for immigrants. In fact, the American welfare state (or at least regulation) started as a response to what happened then.

I used "most people prefer" when it comes to valuing free-market vs. regulation, that are two competing controversial values (at least in the US). Regardless of that, when you contribute to someone's harm (as the entire US did to the slaves or as Europe did to large portions of the world), you should assist them. That, too, is a value judgement, but orthogonal to the free-market question, and, I think, a far less controversial one.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#123
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unaddressed things like the fact that majority of immigrants are actually safe in Turkey and Lebanon immigrant camps, yet they decide to go to Europe for better life (so its not like they are in danger). This is false and it's easy to confirm, just read a bit about the conditions of these camps, the lack of food, etc, and if you want to see it for yourself, check YouTube, it actually has a lot of in person short do…

> On a side-note, how can someone say something is unaddressed with the amount of information available on the internet? People just need to read a bit when in doubt and stop with false (and dangerous) assumptions. I meant by mainstream media. They ignore majority of issues and keep misinforming people dependent on old age media. >This is false and it's easy to confirm... 1) Some camps are actually good suited, its e…

There is a huge difference between seeing an informed documentary and seeing an out of context video. For example, it's quite possible these people were rejecting food and water because they were tired of being beaten and hold up by the Hungarian police/military, as seen in lots of other videos. One should see these videos with an open mind and not with a preconceived idea because that's how it got us to be surprised by a young child drown in the beach when hundreds of others already had had the same fate or when we start saying they should stay on the neighbouring countries when, in fact, they already are, millions of them.

Obviously these people will behave like any other people would: in a possibly desperate and irrational way. Some would do some things they shouldn't and might end up in jail for it, some will not. It's up to each individual to fight in their own way.

Regarding your first point, you should really read about the United Nations World Food Programme which is the organism in charge of paying for all the food in these camps. From their own page[1]: "The World Food Programme (WFP) is struggling to meet the urgent food needs of close to six million displaced people in Syria and in neighbouring countries. Food operations are severely underfunded, meaning that WFP has been forced to reduce the level of assistance it provides to refugees across the region." More[2]: "1.7m Syrian refugees face food crisis as UN funds dry up". I have never been hungry in my life but it mustn't be what I would call being "good enough". I agree they are not dead though, just hungry.

[1] http://www.wfp.org/emergencies/syria [2] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/01/syrian-refugees...

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#124
post #116
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats. Did you ever look for any kind of information on the matter, or you just saw…

> I'll will assume - given your views it's far-fetched, I know* - that you're not retarded. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation. Avoid gratuitous negativity. > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

I would say that face to face to someone that makes such statements while being clearly on the rich side of the table, but that doesn't make my way right. Thanks for reminding me the guidelines, I'll try to behave :-)

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#125

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

Here is a good anti-refugee argument, from a refugee: https://vine.co/v/eTZO5j3q9Vp

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#126
post #61

I'm from Austria. We have thousands of refugees crossing our border from Hungary daily right now, since they are being treated like animals there. [0] Civil society responded quickly: here in Vienna there are thousands of volunteers providing food, shelter and medicine, even going into the camps in hungary and rescuing people out from there, bringing them (probably illegally, the situation isn't clear) across the bor…

Germany will have around 1M refugees in 2015 alone. Maybe 1.3M in 2016, maybe 1.7M in 2017? Considering most asylum seekers will bring their families(let's average 2 people more each one) along afterwards. That's only considering Syria.

Now think about Lybia getting worse(it actually is) -> Lybian refugees.

Wars in Eritrea, Iraq, Nigeria, Yemen! -> Other refugees ...

There are also refugees from not-at-war countries whose life is at high risk (Pakistan, Iran, Somalia).

At the same time consider that Greece can't pay its pensioners, Italy, Spain, Portugal are not that crazily better. High unemployment.

Other European countries such as Romania, Hungary, Poland, Croatia,etc are just starting to grow and match EU standards.

There's also a risk of importing their conflicts to EU streets - e.g. Kurds+Turks in Germany/Austria/Switzerland. There's been fights already in the last days in Switzerland and Stockholm.

I believe refugees should be given help and a safe shelter by sponsoring and building communities in borrowed land from Turkey/Lebannon/Jordan. However I'm of the opinion that inviting them to stay in the EU makes everything more complicated and expensive(which doesn't maximize the number of refugees you can help per euro) AND encourages the ones who can afford to pay human smugglers to risk their lives by crossing the sea.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#127
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to argue. I interpreted your post above as somehow opposing free trade in labor since "most people in the west prefer..." economic protectionism. If you were not, my mistake. As usual you're attributing to me arguments I've never made Why bring up "most people in $GROUP prefer" if that is not a valid argument in favor of a policy? I truly have no idea what you are trying…

I responded to your statement that "the best solution to this is of course ending the welfare state", and said that's been tried (in late 19th-century America) and wasn't too great for immigrants. In fact, the American welfare state (or at least regulation) started as a response to what happened then. I used "most people prefer" when it comes to valuing free-market vs. regulation, that are two competing controversial…

Immigration plus no welfare state was vastly better than the alternative of starving in ireland. It's also vastly better than being beheaded by ISIS or being paid 200rs/day in India.

But again, those folks don't seem to count.

I'm also confused by the collective responsibility you seem to allude to. How do you determine which groups this responsibility adheres to? Can "the Jews" rather than "Europe" also be collectively responsible for things?

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#128
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I responded to your statement that "the best solution to this is of course ending the welfare state", and said that's been tried (in late 19th-century America) and wasn't too great for immigrants. In fact, the American welfare state (or at least regulation) started as a response to what happened then. I used "most people prefer" when it comes to valuing free-market vs. regulation, that are two competing controversial…

Immigration plus no welfare state was vastly better than the alternative of starving in ireland. It's also vastly better than being beheaded by ISIS or being paid 200rs/day in India. But again, those folks don't seem to count. I'm also confused by the collective responsibility you seem to allude to. How do you determine which groups this responsibility adheres to? Can "the Jews" rather than "Europe" also be collectiv…

> Immigration plus no welfare state was vastly better than the alternative of starving in ireland. It's also vastly better than being beheaded by ISIS or being paid 200rs/day in India.

Sure, but so does immigration with a welfare state. What does the welfare state have to do with that? If you'd say that the welfare state increases the cost of accepting immigrants, that may be true, but people living in a welfare state are usually willing to pay that price for what they believe is a more pleasant society. I don't think free-market people are any more willing to accept immigrants for their own free-market reasons (e.g. they're willing to settle for less so they lower the wages overall, and most people are employees rather than employers).

> I'm also confused by the collective responsibility you seem to allude to. How do you determine which groups this responsibility adheres to? Can "the Jews" rather than "Europe" also be collectively responsible for things?

That's a very good question that is the subject of much debate in ethics. But the first thing to note that in this case there is no legal responsibility or any sort of coercion, so the philosophical burden is lifted a bit. If there's no obligation we can resolve the matter with a simple feeling. If you feel responsible -- act; if not -- don't.

But if we were to discuss the matter more on principle, then you can try to answer the question in general (see [1]), but I prefer a more pragmatic approach if "philosophical shortcuts" can be made, and I believe that in this case they can be made, due to these two (particular) factors:

1. The cost of the action is collective (i.e. tax money). While it may affect individuals personally (those harmed by increased crime), that is not any more so than any collective action, like zoning, taxation etc. (contrast that with collective responsibility of the kind that exacts a direct personal price like bombing civilians).

2. The benefit from the harm inflicted is still felt. Most Europeans today benefit (personally, though perhaps indirectly) from their respective countries having looted the rest of the world.

(also, of course, unlike with "the Jews", there really was collective action involved in subjugating the rest of the world)

The extenuating circumstances in this case -- namely that European states were not democracies at the time most of the meddling took place is offset, IMO, by point 2, which makes everything easier. If you possess stolen property that you inherited, you still have to return yet (that's a big generalization and there can be special circumstances, but as a general rule, this is a relatively easy moral call).

So I think that in this particular case, these two factors make it easy to assign collective responsibility, even without resolving the question of collective responsibility in general. BTW, My personal view is that collective responsibility can only exist in particular cases that are very dependent on circumstance. It is certainly more rare than personal responsibility, but it exists because much of human endeavor is done as groups that are more than just a sum of individuals (as we know that group dynamics is a very different beast from personal dynamics). If you reject the notion of collective responsibility in all circumstances, you exclude a large part of human action from moral judgement (I don't believe ethics is by any means an absolute, but as a human construct it is meant to apply to most human actions).

It is interesting to note that even the Bible, which normally places a strong emphasis on personal responsibility, certainly acknowledges cases of collective responsibility (and sometimes punishment).

[1]: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/collective-responsibility/

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#129
post #104
post #86

United States, Canada, Germany, Denmark, Britain, France and most vassal European Countries should shoulder most refugees since the "American led coalition" supports the head-cutting terrorists. See what happened in Libya with the US supported Arab Spring(what a joke!). By the way, most refugees are male at a very young age. If there are from Syria, why don't they stay and fight for their country? The article did not…

There would not have been any refugees if some of the Arab states (e.g. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt) would have intervened in Syria either. It's not just "the west": no country made a serious effort to prevent the escalation there. You could argue that any attempt at a serious effort was thwarted at the UN level by the apathetic attitude of Russia and China, but in that case your complaint against Americans and white…

God! You are ignorant! Saudi Arabia and Quatar have been financing the war in Syria by sending arms and recruiting mindless criminals around the world to fight the "bad" Assad. 18.000 Syrian childen in Turkish camps are missing because their organs were harvested and sold to "customers". And, of course, their supportive partners (US and Israel) have been helping out a lot. But i guess it's Turkey/Saudi Arabia/Quatar and not their "God bless their souls" poor Americans and their European dogs massacring the world. Putin saved Syria one too many times:-> What if Americans Had Known in 2013 that U.S. rejected Syria Deal in 2012? http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article42867.htm You American/British/and other of the North are just killing logic. Really.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#130
post #108

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

The 'resort to crime' isn't actually true [1]. We just think it is. [1]: http://phys.org/news/2012-06-people-undocumented-immigrants-...

Unless I'm missing something, there's no actual data about per capita crime or criminality rates by country of origin or even immigration status in that article. That's the data that would actually be useful.
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