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What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

carryology.com

21–30 of 144 posts

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#21
On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole.

Big picture: most refugees going across the Mediterranean are Syrian, male (like 72% male!), young, and poor.[0] Like unless they have families that they're hoping to have evacuated (why didn't they bring them over in the first place?), we're talking about a recipe for complete stupidity. Language barriers exist, education barriers exist; I don't know how the Europeans intend to get all of these refugee adults up to economic snuff at the same grade of Europeans who were trained in the ways of the West from birth.

This is going to be a demographic shock to countries with more balanced gender ratios, and in the case of Europe, upside-down aging pyramids. Men without solid economic recourse and lack of cultural integration are going to resort to crime. They will upset the local sex market through strong male competition for women (rape town!). Politics in Europe will never be the same as the majority of the young do not carry any of the previous generation's values.

I'm really open to being proved wrong, I really am. But I'm not counting on it.

[0] http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#22

I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats. I am by no means denying the need for help for actual war victims, if I could s…

Sirens go off, soldiers with tanks arrive at the main road of your town. You have to leave your home NOW. What device would you take with you to reconnect with your friends and family somewhere else, later, in safety? Do you really think middle class people in other countries still communicate with bush drums? Smart Guy.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#23
I'm surprised to not see any food or water at all. While most food is heavy to carry and it is easily restockable in most places, i imagine that you many times would have to cross into remote areas to avoid border patrols, just having some snacks to last a day takes you a long way. Maybe it was all eaten already.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#24
The bit that disturbs me is how the police in many of these "first landing" countries have no qualms about knifing a rubber boat filled with people including small children that can't swim. That's murder. This kind of thing is going on all over the world. Refugees from Burma for example are also getting the same treatment but the Thai's.

We in the west are niaeve. We think we can incite revolutions and civil wars to overthrow the regimes that don't conform to our expectations of democracy, without appreciating that those actions have long term and negative effects upon ourselves. We have reeped what we sowed. Now we need to take responsibility for our actions.

The real refugees should be given the opportunity to integrate properly. We do not need cultural enclaves in our own cities. They lead to isolation and foster extremism in those immigrants that only feel hatred from their begrudging host countries' native populations. They need training and education, especially so that they can speak the language of their host country. For refugees moving to Germany that will be a challenge in itself. The language is hard. I've been here as an internal EU immigrant for nearly ten years and I still struggle with it.

The economic migrants, like those from Western Balkans, the near East and African countries that are peaceful need to weeded out and sent back.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#25

I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats. I am by no means denying the need for help for actual war victims, if I could s…

"Temporary" can mean decades. How many wars have had a predictable timeframe?

As a child of refugees and having hung around quite a lot of immigrants, I think the biggest impediment to building a new life is the idea that you're going back. I hear this story all the time, from some kid whose parents insist they learn the old language and act like people from the old country, because in just a few years they'll be moving back there. Of course the "kid" will be in his 20s, having grown up in prosperous Scandinavia.

At the same time, you piss off the natives if you act like you are not sincerely trying to integrate. I don't think it happens a lot, but every time you hear a story about some foreigner taking advantage of the system, it makes it harder for all of them. Eg a friend of mine was translating for some newcomers from some Russian-speaking country. They were basically shopping for a free house, discussing whether they could get a better place, and openly planning their next trip home to old country, from which they were ostensibly fleeing.

The smartest thing to do as an immigrant is to immediately learn the language and try to find something to do. Get new friends who are local, and don't long for the old country.

Having millions of people living in temporary camps is a waste of millions of lives.

Now I do think there's a lot of pressure on the border countries, since they're taking a disproportionate amount of people. What should be done is once the UN decides a country is a war zone, everyone from there should be able to enter a lottery to be resettled elsewhere. They have to make a commitment to learn the new language, and not to come back for a long time.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#26
post #18

I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats. I am by no means denying the need for help for actual war victims, if I could s…

I've said it before - eco-migrants should be taken care similarly to warzone migrants. I wouldn't say that dying slowly - "living" a low quality of life in poverty is much better than dying in a war... It is a natural human behavior to seek a better life and it is a good thing. The movement/relocation is a basic human right.

The problem is what happens when economic migration intersects with modern democracy and welfare states. Because of the state, migrants (who should be a net positive due to comparative advantage) suddenly become an economic drain and can harm the people in the society they enter. This happens both by taking resources from workers via the welfare state and by voting for harmful policies (though this last part usually happens much later).

The best solution to this is of course ending the welfare state and permanent disenfranchisement, not threatening migrants and their potential employers with violence. But far too many people are more about their pet political ideals than about refugees.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#27

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

Let me take on the easiest part of the argument first. Someone more knowledgeable can deal with the rest.

> Politics in Europe will never be the same as the majority of the young do not carry any of the previous generation's values.

First reaction: boo-hoo. More reasonable reaction: the Eurozone's population is about 330 millions right now, are they really expecting 100millions+ refugee? Yes, right now the refugees are concentrating in just a few countries, but that's because of the EU's attitude and passing-the-ball solution so far. The area as a whole CAN take on the refugees.

The same argument on the scale can easily apply to most of your other objections really. But the most important point is as simple as this: it's a very shitty situation all around, but does the anti-refugee camp have any proposed solution besides "tough shit, they are not my problems"? I mean, I can see people being selfish, and that itself is not a problem, but let's just call a spade a spade? EU citizens are all within their own rights for vote for their Trump-equivalent and build a wall around EU.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#28

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

You speak as if Europe has a choice in accepting refugees. I believe the last few weeks in particular show that this choice does not exist. They will come, and we will have to do the best we can out of the situation.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#29

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

You are going to be massively downvoted, but I am glad to see a dissenting opinion here. It is far too easy for a discussion like this to turn into a "look at our empathy, aren't we great" - alternate opinions are useful.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#30

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

> rape town!

The amount of assumptions and fear in reactions like these worry me way more than those refugees themselves.

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