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What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

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Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#31

Post by artnep »

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

Interesting point regarding gender ratios. It's a good thing prostitution is legal and widespread in Germany.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#32

Post by kshatrea »

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

The overwhelmingly male youth that are immigrating are the reason a bunch of conspiracy theories are afloat on the internet. The next few years will be interesting. By all accounts Europe is headed for a recession and recessions usually foster xenophobia.[0] As an Indian living in Europe, I haven't yet noticed any changes but I assume that it will only get worse since behind all the talk about "humanity" most people still have to get 3 meals and when you have thousands such young hungry and tired men who can't get a job, I agree with the parent. Hopefully he and I are proved wrong since this is a real crisis.

[0]http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/racethmulglocon.4.2.183?...

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#33

Post by bordercases »

Zirro wrote: post #28
bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

You speak as if Europe has a choice in accepting refugees. I believe the last few weeks in particular show that this choice does not exist. They will come, and we will have to do the best we can out of the situation.

They do! Germany, the UK and the Scandinavian nations are the only European countries (that I was aware of circa within the week) to be actively accepting Syrian refugees - every other country in between them AND the Mediterranean have had negative responses to incoming refugees and I would expect deportation.

If refugees were just coming in for safety's sake, there are plenty of other Islamic countries that would be more culturally compatible (that argument would fail in the case of Syrian Christians; I don't know the full proportion of real religious denomination to refugee count). There are plenty of European countries that want no business with refugees, like Hungary, who have just declared martial law in the last few days or so wrt refugees.

It's a choice. It's a hard choice, one which tangles several levels of liberal beliefs of tolerance in a democratic state and respecting a country's historical/ethnic heritage, which is why I think there is so much controversy. I personally don't see how any country in Europe is obliged to accept refugees.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#34

Post by atmosx »

friendzis wrote: post #10

I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats. I am by no means denying the need for help for actual war victims, if I could s…

> I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats.

Did you ever look for any kind of information on the matter, or you just saw a commentary of some tv-persona who spends for breakfast a month's worth salary? Because if you did, you would have find very compelling answers.

Why don't you come here and try to fend off 4.5 million people. What exactly would you have us do, shoot them on spot? Even to jail requires money and we're busy paying taxes (~70% of income is taxes in Greece right now).

Greece and Italy are dealing with immigration waves for at least 15 years. You just had a GLANCE and went berserk before they even reached your country's borders. Did you give a sht until now, or you woke up today saw the TV news and got interested?

Why don't to take a look at the news. See how Germany and Nordic countries dealt with Greek/Italian immigration problems all these years... See if you can spot some patterns there.

> We call those [economic] immigrants and have rules. Now its wild west. And in the news reports I usually see people toying with iPhone 5/6 and wearing [designer] jeans/jackets.

I'll will assume - given your views it's far-fetched, I know* - that you're not retarded. If you see iPhones en masse in immigrant pictures than you're looking at the wrong pictures. Let me help you[1].

> I am all for growing a pair and actually declaring what is a war zone. Working with UN/NATO to establish a peace there.

Where? Do you think the EU (well Germany and the UK, the others don't count anyway) has a say in US vs Russian war? Because that's what this is all about. The way Germany treats Greece, is the exact way the US treats Germany. Less stunts, but the baseline is exactly the same, humiliations one after another (Snowden scandal, "fuck the EU" by Nuland and so forth). So, in the real world, there's little if anything the EU can do about this, except form picking up the pieces.

I said this before, after the German-Greek showdown the EU is a finished project. It is a failure at so many levels that it's scary. I fear that first will come the break-up and then probably some sort of war... And it will be worse than the other two.

[1] https://www.google.gr/search?q=migrant+flow+2015&espv=2&biw=...

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#35

Post by [deleted] »

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

[deleted]

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#36

Post by socket0 »

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

Your numbers can't be faulted, but the risks might be overstated. Based on purely anecdotal evidence (several young Syrian men who ended up in Belgium) I can say that many of these guys do indeed have families they intend to bring over. Because of the danger and uncertainty of the journey, those who could stash their families somewhere relatively safe for a short while did so. They knew it would be easier for them to reach real safety on their own, and that there will be organisations to help them reunite with their families afterwards. Of course, a negative aspect to this is that the current refugee numbers are lower than they should be, as many of these people will soon account for several more.

The struggle for economic resources might not be as bad as you envision. Countries like Germany have excellent social welfare systems with the capacity of processing refugees as quickly as possible. (OK, "as quickly as possible" isn't very quick, but they'll handle it.) The biggest challenge at the moment is getting these people off welfare and into the job market. Sure, because of cultural and educational differences we're probably not going to see many engineers or neurosurgeons, but the people who collect our garbage and do our cleaning mostly aren't engineers or neurosurgeons either. And language barriers are more fuzzy in the EU than in most other places, we tend to get around them. The jobs won't be fancy, but they'll pay minimum wage and give the refugees a purpose and a sense of self-worth. Also, there's no path to integration as straight and speedy as hanging out with colleagues over breaks.

But you're right, it's not going to be easy. It's going to take pragmatic and inspired leadership within the EU, and we're in very short supply of that. On the other hand, these people and their children will pay the future taxes that fund my pension and socialised medicine, all I need to do is make sure they're safe and land on their feet now.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#37

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

NhanH wrote: post #27
bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

Let me take on the easiest part of the argument first. Someone more knowledgeable can deal with the rest. > Politics in Europe will never be the same as the majority of the young do not carry any of the previous generation's values. First reaction: boo-hoo. More reasonable reaction: the Eurozone's population is about 330 millions right now, are they really expecting 100millions+ refugee? Yes, right now the refugees a…

it's not just EU's attitude: the immigrants choose the countries themselves, there is no way to keep them e.g. in Hungary if all they want is to go to Germany

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#38

Post by Animats »

Zirro wrote: post #28
bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

You speak as if Europe has a choice in accepting refugees. I believe the last few weeks in particular show that this choice does not exist. They will come, and we will have to do the best we can out of the situation.

Hungary just closed their border. They put up over a hundred miles of fence on their border with Serbia, backed up by police and troops.[1]

[1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/15/us-europe-migrants...

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#39

Post by atmosx »

bordercases wrote: post #33
Zirro wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You speak as if Europe has a choice in accepting refugees. I believe the last few weeks in particular show that this choice does not exist. They will come, and we will have to do the best we can out of the situation.

They do! Germany, the UK and the Scandinavian nations are the only European countries (that I was aware of circa within the week) to be actively accepting Syrian refugees - every other country in between them AND the Mediterranean have had negative responses to incoming refugees and I would expect deportation. If refugees were just coming in for safety's sake, there are plenty of other Islamic countries that would be…

Germany is closing it's borders: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/14/refugees-confou...

They do! (close the borders).

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#40

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

junto wrote: post #24

The bit that disturbs me is how the police in many of these "first landing" countries have no qualms about knifing a rubber boat filled with people including small children that can't swim. That's murder. This kind of thing is going on all over the world. Refugees from Burma for example are also getting the same treatment but the Thai's. We in the west are niaeve. We think we can incite revolutions and civil wars to…

it's not the police who is making cuts in the boat, it's the immigrants themselves when they see a coast guard boat - they do it so that they can't be sent back
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