Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices • Hacker News Board

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#81

Post by hrabago » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:09 PM UTC

sagivo wrote: post #11

I'm in the process of joining Amazon as a software engineer manager. I don't know how to respond to this article and if to continue the process with them.

I have stopped responding to Amazon recruiters because of workplace issues I keep reading about through the years. There wasn't a lot in the article that I found shocking.

I'm not saying that every department would be bad, so you could opt to continue to join them and see if you can run one of the more humane ones. Be careful though - you might not realize it if/when you slip into the ones described in the article.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#82

Post by balls187 » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:11 PM UTC

mrbig4545 wrote: post #67

degradas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is book a called Corporate Confidential [1], written by a former HR person. One of most significant ideas there is that HR is (from the perspective of an employee) not your friend, but rather an enemy. They exist to protect the company, not you. Basically, going to HR is a quick way to get fired (for legal reasons, mind you) or kill your career. Whole book is highly depressing, but very useful if you want to tr…

I always thought HR was there to manage the resources the humans need, e.g. teabags. That and justifying their existence by making more resources for the humans. It really does strike me a non-job that requires a lot of work to keep in existence That's about the only dealings I have with them. I guess that's a benefit of working at a small company :) On a serious note though, you're right, HR is not your friend, it's…

There are other things as well that are pretty important: Recruiting, performance reviews, and visa sponsorships.

I personally would hate to setup interview loops, having to manage calendars and book rooms, and the amount of paperwork required to hire a candidate that is not a US Resident, boy that would suck too.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#83

Post by NoGravitas » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:11 PM UTC

adultSwim wrote: post #71

rdtsc wrote: post #4

> But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at jeff@amazon.com. Even if it’s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero. I say don't escalate to HR but leave to work at another place. HR is not your advocate, it is not there to help you. You are just a "resource" just like it says in the name. There have been man…

If only there was a structure to represent workers where we could take such issues...

Maybe workers could come together to build such a structure...somewhere they could come together to negotiate their conditions of employment...

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#84

Post by anotherangrydev » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:11 PM UTC

GnomeChomsky wrote: post #70

anotherangrydev wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're the 1%, then. Honestly, I haven't met one decent guy in HR in a loooong time. Quite the contrary, I have plenty of bad experiences with HR that made me believe those things. I'll give you my favorite examples: I once got fired because I told some bitch (she was really a bitch, and that's not just my opinion, the whole workplace thought of that) to mind her own business. I was on a break and reading a magazine…

What's frustrating is that it, of course, doesn't have to be rotten. We can take one baby step by abolishing terms like "human resources" and "human capital" because labels do matter. I also wonder if part of the problem is that HR leaders have (broadly speaking) traditionally been 'town planners' when you really need a mix of 'pioneers' and 'settlers' in there too. E.g. don't put a town planner in charge of culture…

I agree with you. Things need to be solved with a different structure.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#85

Post by JoshuaEddy » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:12 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #4

> But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at jeff@amazon.com. Even if it’s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero. I say don't escalate to HR but leave to work at another place. HR is not your advocate, it is not there to help you. You are just a "resource" just like it says in the name. There have been man…

I want to realign HR under a "Chief Productivity Officer" who is also responsible for IT. The CPO's goal and metric is maximization of workforce productivity by getting employees working smart, working hard, retaining good people and getting rid of the bad, improving management skills, and leveraging technology.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#86

Post by kabdib » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:12 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #4

> But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at jeff@amazon.com. Even if it’s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero. I say don't escalate to HR but leave to work at another place. HR is not your advocate, it is not there to help you. You are just a "resource" just like it says in the name. There have been man…

+1. The few times I've seen HR involved in a workplace kerfuffle, it's never been an improvement. More like the Spanish Inquisition, where they don't care if you're guilty and they're just arguing over what tools to use.

Never piss off a co-worker who happens to be the girlfriend of someone in the management chain above you. That . . . did not go well.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#87

Post by FilterSweep » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:12 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #39

rdtsc wrote: post #4

> But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at jeff@amazon.com. Even if it’s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero. I say don't escalate to HR but leave to work at another place. HR is not your advocate, it is not there to help you. You are just a "resource" just like it says in the name. There have been man…

http://dilbert.com/strip/2011-02-20

Notice how the devs weren't mentioned ;)

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#88

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:13 PM UTC

This kind of thing reminded me of when Eric Schmidt justified Google's reputationally low pay by saying "people don't work at Google for the money, they do it to change the world!"

Of course, Google's stock made him a billionaire.

To me this problem seems to root itself in the absurdity of equity percentages. How is it one who comes to the company a year after founding can work the same 10-12 hour days as a founder and yet see maybe 1% in options they have to pay for while founders expect 15% and up for being there at the beginning? Seems all right when the company is young and the risk is high, but what ends up happening is that the fresh blood 10,20 years on has to fight for scraps while the now-wealthy founders can enjoy their work knowing they could quit tomorrow and never have to lift a finger again.

White collar Walmart could pay its employees squarely to compensate for their mental health and social lives, but they act almost allergic to profits as long as they can continue stock offerings to keep prices at a minimum.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#89

Post by drzaiusapelord » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:13 PM UTC

inversionOf wrote: post #41

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most of them could easily find another job someplace else Not too long ago we laughed at open offices and tiny cubes with half or quarter height walls as just desserts for low wage workers like call center operators. After all, if they wanted better conditions they should make themselves more marketable. Now coders are having to deal with these punishing layouts due to them being a current executive fad. Now every e…

Terrible working conditions have been the norm for many coders for as long as there has been coding. In the late 90s, Joel Spolsky rose by being a contrarian and advocating good work conditions. Microsoft was always held as an extreme outlier with its good conditions. Everyone was agape about the .com bubble because companies were giving employees nice chairs (which in retrospect seems absurd...something so minor as…

Maybe, but I'm probably a lot older than your average HN'er and I remember my first few jobs. Everyone had an office. The sysadmin had one, the developers each had one, the manager did, etc. Or at the very least had a proper full size cube with proper size walls. There was an emphasis of privacy and quiet time because everyone needed to concentrate to get shit done. Walking into IT was like walking into a library.

10+ years ago was the last time I saw IT staff in offices outside of management or even a proper full sized, full walled cube.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#90

Post by beauzero » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:13 PM UTC

c_lebesgue wrote: post #53

beauzero wrote: post #49

I think the point is being missed. As long as Amazon has "interesting" problems to solve they will get good people (look at what PhD candidates will suffer). If they don't then only those who can't leave will be left behind. I know this is cynical but it is also why I love this field so much. I look for interesting problems to solve...not huge benefits. Money just doesn't get me up in the morning. Will I die poor...m…

Honest question: do you think that only Amazon has interesting problems to solve? I do not know much about the company internally, but there exist other companies that compensate and treat employees better, such as Google or Facebook.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Maybe I didn't phrase my thoughts well. Amazon's problem is providing "interesting" problems. Interesting problems also are usually very niche. The problems that Google and Facebook are trying to solve don't necessarily overlap with those being solved by Amazon. My comment was more aimed at the viability of Amazon finding the most capable people it could. It seems to have removed "culture" as a positive and the only thing that it has going for it is "interesting" problems. Without them Amazon will rot. So far they continue to allow people to work on cool things.