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Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

nytimes.com

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Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#51
post #33
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reasoning could also be applied to anyone who's suffering in an abusive relationship (whether emotional or physical). It would be inappropriate then, just as it's inappropriate here. In addition, not everything has to be decided solely by where one spends their money. It's entirely possible to put pressure on an organisation through other means.

This isn't a man who is beating his wife. The employee doesn't have the social pressure to stay with someone they married rather than face the shame of divorce. The employee doesn't have a part of them that is literally in love with the abuser (a company). It's a stretch to use the 'abused spouse' argument with highly educated knowledge workers making 6 figure salaries. Find a new job.

> The employee doesn't have the social pressure to stay with someone they married rather than face the shame of divorce.

Actually, workplaces like this tend to thrive on social pressure and psychological manipulation. The NYT article paints a picture in which people begin undergoing brainwashing on day one. A workplace can most definitely create a very powerful culture of internal shaming.

That said, leaving an abusive relationship is still likely to be harder, for a few reasons. First, there's true love involved -- no employee was ever truly in love with Amazon. Second, there are logistical reasons -- it's probably easier to quit Amazon and find another job than it is for many people to leave an abusive relationship and get back on their own independent feet.

But I think it's still dangerous to underestimate the social pressures that a large corporation can create.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#52
post #3

I've been reading various comments about this around the internet and many people are saying they will stop ordering from Amazon because of it. These white collar workers are highly paid, and not forced to be there. Most of them could easily find another job someplace else (and it sounds like many do). I just can't feel bad for them. If you don't want to work throughout your vacation, go find another job that won't m…

>I will keep ordering from Amazon because they provide the best service. Simple as that.

I will keep buying from clothes from Primark because they provide the cheapest. Simple as that.

...

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#53

I think the point is being missed. As long as Amazon has "interesting" problems to solve they will get good people (look at what PhD candidates will suffer). If they don't then only those who can't leave will be left behind. I know this is cynical but it is also why I love this field so much. I look for interesting problems to solve...not huge benefits. Money just doesn't get me up in the morning. Will I die poor...m…

Honest question: do you think that only Amazon has interesting problems to solve? I do not know much about the company internally, but there exist other companies that compensate and treat employees better, such as Google or Facebook.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#55
post #3

I've been reading various comments about this around the internet and many people are saying they will stop ordering from Amazon because of it. These white collar workers are highly paid, and not forced to be there. Most of them could easily find another job someplace else (and it sounds like many do). I just can't feel bad for them. If you don't want to work throughout your vacation, go find another job that won't m…

Honestly, I would need to see white collar women shackled to computers in dilapidated warehouses on 60 minutes before I had to give up 2 Day Shipping, and even then I'd probably convince myself that the exposure means change is happening and start using again

To those who have down voted this comment, you down vote this comment for being distasteful without recognizing the reality and honesty its perspective provides.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#56
post #4

> But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at jeff@amazon.com. Even if it’s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero. I say don't escalate to HR but leave to work at another place. HR is not your advocate, it is not there to help you. You are just a "resource" just like it says in the name. There have been man…

There is book a called Corporate Confidential [1], written by a former HR person. One of most significant ideas there is that HR is (from the perspective of an employee) not your friend, but rather an enemy. They exist to protect the company, not you. Basically, going to HR is a quick way to get fired (for legal reasons, mind you) or kill your career. Whole book is highly depressing, but very useful if you want to tr…

Totally agree- the primary purpose of HR is to protect a company from lawsuits brought by its own employees.

By establishing that they have policies against sexual harassment, discrimination, etc. etc. the company can say that there's no "systemic problem", and any particular incidents therefore must be the fault of the individual employees concerned and not the company itself.

They need HR to exist in so far as it allows them to tell this story to a judge if it ever does turn into a lawsuit.

It's simply not worth approaching HR. Talk to a lawyer before you talk to HR. You would only want to talk to HR if you were willing to sue your employer, which itself is only worthwhile doing if the amount of money you could win is sufficient that you won't need to work again (because in any public case, other employers are also going to avoid employing someone who has a history of suing their employer... as much as they legally can).

For anything more trivial than that, the best defense against an abusive employer is to be employable elsewhere. If you are willing and able to walk away and into another job, you'll be treated much better, regardless of any specific HR policies.

P.S. it made me laugh to see that the book hyper link is to amazon.com - how's that for irony!

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#57

I think the point is being missed. As long as Amazon has "interesting" problems to solve they will get good people (look at what PhD candidates will suffer). If they don't then only those who can't leave will be left behind. I know this is cynical but it is also why I love this field so much. I look for interesting problems to solve...not huge benefits. Money just doesn't get me up in the morning. Will I die poor...m…

The problem with this is, with some marginal effort you could get vastly more money and interesting problems. Accepting a low salary out of some misguided notion that money isn't important to you is silly. Money gives you options you would not otherwise have - a great salary combined with thrift can facilitate an unusual amount of career flexibility. At the very least, you can donate the money you don't need to GiveWell and save a few lives.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HR is never your friend. Aside from the job they're required to do, HR usually attracts people with despicable morals and class. They wont hesitate on lying to you, set you up on to something, threaten you, whatever it takes to get what they (personally) want. Stay clear of HR, that is true for 99% of jobs.

Aren't people with "despicable morals and class" in every profession? Some of us are actually in HR because we like thinking critically & creatively behind the scenes to make others successful. I totally get why that might not describe the HR teams you've encountered, but I don't think we can all be characterized with such a broad brush.

You're the 1%, then.

Honestly, I haven't met one decent guy in HR in a loooong time. Quite the contrary, I have plenty of bad experiences with HR that made me believe those things. I'll give you my favorite examples:

I once got fired because I told some bitch (she was really a bitch, and that's not just my opinion, the whole workplace thought of that) to mind her own business. I was on a break and reading a magazine when she came in and started lecturing me on to "why I'm not doing other stuff? why do I read those kinds of magazines? (It was a gossip magazine, but who cares it was what it was nearby) I'm a little old for that." Politely but firmly told her something like "This is my break. Fuck off, you can't tell me what to do on my break and I read whatever I want to". She left. Three months later got called to get fired, turns out she was secretly raising reports about me that were small stuff (and completely fake) like "... was asked to do X and refused", "... yelled at a client", "... reads magazines while at work (of course)". When I had like 10 or so of them she fired me because of a "bad overall attitude" and those were her (fake) proofs. That's the kind of shit HR LOVES to do man.

Another one. I once knew (but not as in "a friend told me", I saw it) of a place where all the candidates that got hired were because they were laying down with the girl that ran the interviews. Later when they got the job, they started to get fired when that girl found them not sexually appealing anymore. Yup.

I think there has to be something psychological behind that, because other while other teammates may be assholes your job does not depend direclty on them or you are pretty much at the same level. Since HR is above you and can fire you at will there is a lot of power bestowed to only one side of the parts involved. I think it may be some kind of Stanford Prison stuff right there. Sorry to call it mate but your field is a rotten one.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#59
post #4

> But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at jeff@amazon.com. Even if it’s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero. I say don't escalate to HR but leave to work at another place. HR is not your advocate, it is not there to help you. You are just a "resource" just like it says in the name. There have been man…

All the HR people I've met in large companies are nice people who care, but when push comes to shove they side with the company/CEO as HR is a CEO support function - sadly.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#60
post #3

I've been reading various comments about this around the internet and many people are saying they will stop ordering from Amazon because of it. These white collar workers are highly paid, and not forced to be there. Most of them could easily find another job someplace else (and it sounds like many do). I just can't feel bad for them. If you don't want to work throughout your vacation, go find another job that won't m…

> I've been reading various comments about this around the internet and many people are saying they will stop ordering from Amazon because of it.

Well it's because the people who are Amazon customers can relate these white collars being "harassed" at Amazon. It's because of a lot of these customers might have lived the same situation and know how horrible this is.

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