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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#981

Post by theferalrobot »

dang wrote: post #500
theferalrobot wrote: post #400

Why are many respectful yet pro-israel posts being flagged and removed, while there are vile pro-hamas posts being flagged and left here? Why was discussion not allowed on Oct 7 but is now? I know you are trying but it does not seem even handed. I'm screenshotting a whole collection of them examples if seeing them together would be helpful.

(I've detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39146010 .) I'd need to see links to specific comments, but certainly the flags aren't working any differently than they usually do. The only difference between [flagged][dead] and just [flagged] is the number of flags relative to upvotes; in the former case it would be higher than in the latter case. Your several comments in this thread seem to be…

Well for instance, why is the news about UNWRA being censored here? I can find links to posts via google but they've all been removed, for example:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39160571

Personally I'd rather non-tech world news stay off HN completely but I'm calling it out because as someone who is up on world news I see quite a double standard unraveling here and that seems unfortunate.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#982

Post by SomeoneFromCA »

envfriendly wrote: post #381
voisin wrote: post #6

Perhaps I am unlearned in this area but I am unclear why the Jewish state, after its people experienced the atrocities of World War II, would act in this manner toward the Palestinians. Can anyone shed light on this? I understand completely the need to rid the world of Hamas terrorists, but in the process they have shown a reckless disregard (to put it mildly) for Palestinian people and their wellbeing.

I think this is rooted in a strangely common misconception that Israelis actually want any of this violence. There's a minority who does, but it's no where near as being as common as on the Palestinian side (around 60-70% of Palestinians support the October 7 massacre) Urban warfare is an ugly and complicated thing. Many of the Israeli soldiers serving in Gaza are moderates risking their life to defend their home and…

What you just saying, is pardon, BS. 50% of respondents of JPost poll said that Israel is not violent enough.

> When individual cases of reckless disregard are discovered (like in videos shared by Israeli soldiers on groups that get leaked out), those soldiers are disciplined.

Really? Do you want us to believe it?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#983

Post by SomeoneFromCA »

drc500free wrote: post #394
biorach wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel shows every day that they are willing and able to live closely with the Palestinians who accept their right to exist and aren't trying to murder their families, without using apartheid-like systems of control This is very much not the case in the West Bank where expropriation and colonisation of Palestinian land by Israeli settlers continue, under the watchful eye of the Israeli army. The Israeli state has d…

I agree that the actions in the occupied territories are oppressive and terrible. I was referring to the actions within Israel itself, towards Israeli Arab Citizens. Which shows that the oppressive actions is not based on ethnicity or religion, it's based on fear.

Ethnicity and nationality is not the same thing. Oppressive actions can easily be between two ethnically similar, but nationally different groups.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#984

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

dang wrote: post #957
jnsaff2 wrote: post #899

What is the guidance regarding commenters who are obvious trolls, propagandists and bad faith actors? Being kind to them is completely wasted effort. Replying to them is also wasted effort as they won't be persuaded. However leaving bullshit unchallenged might make trusting bystanders believe that this is actually the truth.

(I detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39146010 - not that you did anything wrong by posting there, but I don't want the top of the thread to get too off topic. I'll try to come back in a little while and say something in response.) Edit: sorry this took me so long. Here are my thoughts based on past experience: It's not helpful to look at other accounts as "propagandists", "trolls", "bo…

Another point to consider is the old "don't feed the troll". Even if the other person is not really a troll (which I agree they usually aren't, they're just not thinking like you do) if you keep coming back for more you're just giving them the chance to argue their case for longer. So sometimes, if you want to promote your view, the best strategy is to let it drop and pick it up in another thread.

That's... not 100% honest, I guess, but at least it makes for easier to read and easier to handle conversations.

Conversely, arguing on HN has definitely helped me find the words to explain my own thinking to myself, so there's something in flogging a dead horse, sometimes.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#985

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

peanutcrisis wrote: post #939
cultofmetatron wrote: post #909

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yea I tried that. I posted links to all my sources as well as opinions from credible human rights organizations. they just play the game of being obtuse to the very end and then gaslight you about needing to backup my opinions as if there weren't at least 2-3 inks for every assertion I make. one side of this debate is very much NOT acting in good faith because they rely on the status quo being maintained to continue…

I think that's in part because the sources that were once credible, i.e. NGOs, universities, media, and other cultural institutions, have taken a hit to their own reputation as a result of their institutional capture over the years. For every article you can find in support of one camp, one could find a counter piece from other credible sources as well (i.e. NYT vs The Economist and The Atlantic). For every NGO one c…

>> I think that's in part because the sources that were once credible, i.e. NGOs, universities, media, and other cultural institutions, have taken a hit to their own reputation as a result of their institutional capture over the years.

The part about "institutional capture" is obviously right, but the International Humanitarian Law (IHL) NGOs exist exactly in order to support and promote IHL. And it's a standard that when an IHL NGO speaks out against Israel's actions, Israel's or its supporters' response is to say that the NGOs are Hamas. That's where the main "hit" to those NGOs' reputation has come from.

You can see this tactic also in the defense Israel mounted to South Africa's case at the ICJ, where they basically accused South Africa of being in cahoots with Hamas [1]. In the most extreme form of this "defense", everyone is Hamas. I was watching this interview with Alan Dershowitz [2] where he says Doctors Without Borders have been recruited by Hamas, Unicef and Unesco have become voices for Hamas, and even the climate movement and Greta Thunberg is a mouthpiece for Hamas:

https://youtu.be/04ZdRUFITnw?si=T3Y4dUekvv4kfVgr [3]

And you know who is not Hamas, and therefore has credibility, according to Alan Dershowitz in the same video? The US State Dept., the UK, "some" of the other European countries, and Germany, and an academic who's a friend of Alan Dershowitz (although he disagrees with him). So, everyone who agrees with Israel's positions has credibility, everyone who disagrees is Hamas.

That is not NGOs lacking credibility because they adopt, say, a left-learning position, it's Israel and Israel's supporters doing their damnedest best to claim that those organisations have no credibility because they speak out against violations of IHL, which is what they exist to do, when it's Israel that violates those.

Well, the same NGOs have no hesitation to condemn Hamas' atrocities and violations of IHL, or the violations of IHL of any other nation-state or non nation-state actor [4]. That's what they constantly do. To quote Andrew Stroehlein, of Human Rights Watch, "If you only care about war crimes when your enemies commit them, then you don't really care about war crimes." [5]

__________________

[1] Ask me if you need a reference to that, I don't have one at hand.

[2] The interviewer in that clip is also extremely partisan, no question about that. Also, it's a vile smear to identify Dershowitz as "Ex-Trump and Epstein lawyer", as if that's all he is.

[3] Full interview: https://youtu.be/O2UJgI0P-zk?si=fU8hWVszQyu7LJU_

[4] Numerous examples; ask for refs if you need.

[5] https://twitter.com/astroehlein/status/1716111114340049389

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#986

Post by pvg »

pmarreck wrote: post #973
dang wrote: post #867

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've had to warn you before not to post religious flamewar comments to HN (and also nationalistic and ideological flamewar comments). We end up having to ban accounts that do this repeatedly, because it's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. I don't want to ban you! So pleae don't do this on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Argh! I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to start a flamewar. And we have discussed this before, probably. (I have a 2 year old toddler. Sleep is... affected, I will just say that. And consequently, memory.) I guess I do not yet understand the framework within which I can discuss this rationally (if at all), especially given this topic . If there is no such framework on HN, especially given the topic... That's what I'd like…

why this rational endeavour I undertook is somehow wrong.

The fact that something is bad for a nerd messageboard is not some absolute judgement on its wrongness or rightness. 'This or that religion is better or worse than some other religion' is not a discussion that works on HN and, as you know, is not allowed here. There's no 'rational' or 'good faith' variant you can come up that would work so just don't do it on this forum.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#988

Post by dang »

theferalrobot wrote: post #981
dang wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I've detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39146010 .) I'd need to see links to specific comments, but certainly the flags aren't working any differently than they usually do. The only difference between [flagged][dead] and just [flagged] is the number of flags relative to upvotes; in the former case it would be higher than in the latter case. Your several comments in this thread seem to be…

Well for instance, why is the news about UNWRA being censored here? I can find links to posts via google but they've all been removed, for example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39160571 Personally I'd rather non-tech world news stay off HN completely but I'm calling it out because as someone who is up on world news I see quite a double standard unraveling here and that seems unfortunate.

Users flagged that story. We didn't touch it or even see it. I've turned off the flags now.

I just wrote a long explanation of how we approach the question of flags on stories like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39161344. If you read that and still have a question that isn't answered there, I'd be happy to hear it.

If you do read it, you'll notice that one factor is whether there has been a major thread about the topic recently. That's important here because the current enormous thread isn't even 2 days old. HN can't handle a major discussion about this topic very often. So while I've turned off the flags, I don't think another story about this topic should be on the front page yet.

If it helps at all, before I saw your comment I was just responding (by email) to someone asking why https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39160743 was flagged, and I answered the same way: that is, (1) I turned off the flags, but also (2) explained why HN can't have another frontpage thread about this two days after the last one.

I know a pair of cases is a small sample but I hope it can count as a sign of how we try to be even-handed. I've learned the hard way that it's simply impossible to avoid perceptions and accusations of bias on divisive topics; even the most neutral moderation is going to generate such perceptions (actually it's worse than that—it's going to generate more). I'm not claiming to be at that level but I can tell you for sure that we do work hard at being even-handed.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#989

Post by pmarreck »

pvg wrote: post #986
pmarreck wrote: post #973

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Argh! I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to start a flamewar. And we have discussed this before, probably. (I have a 2 year old toddler. Sleep is... affected, I will just say that. And consequently, memory.) I guess I do not yet understand the framework within which I can discuss this rationally (if at all), especially given this topic . If there is no such framework on HN, especially given the topic... That's what I'd like…

why this rational endeavour I undertook is somehow wrong. The fact that something is bad for a nerd messageboard is not some absolute judgement on its wrongness or rightness. 'This or that religion is better or worse than some other religion' is not a discussion that works on HN and, as you know, is not allowed here. There's no 'rational' or 'good faith' variant you can come up that would work so just don't do it on…

Good answer, sorry for pushing the rules, thanks for elucidating me for the second and hopefully last time.

This might be a funny time to ask, but do you guys need mod help? The best way to learn something is to teach it, they say...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#990

Post by peterashford »

irishloop wrote: post #849
peterashford wrote: post #829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People said Apartheid South Africa couldn't end without a bloodbath. People said peace in Northern Ireland was impossible. People thought the Cold War would never end. Impossible things are impossible until they aren't. I'm not saying that any of these things are easy - they clearly are not. But history shows us again and again that change is possible when people work towards it in good faith. From a practical point…

The Palestine/Israel conflict is significantly longer than any of the examples you gave. Which is not to say that its impossible. But the older I get, the less hope I have.

Apartheid started in 1948. It was around for quite a long time. And the roots of the division in Northern Ireland went back centuries. But yes, long running divisions are harder to solve. Harder != impossible. And look at history - stuff changes.
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