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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#971
post #263

Hi All, I am a combat soldier and commander in the IDF currently fighting in Gaza. We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. We risk ourselves and our soldiers to ensure that the…

>> The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. According to Omer Bartov, scholar of genocide, the criterion for genocide is that there is intent to commit genocide: The crime of genocide was defined in 1948 by the United Nations as “the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such.” https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinio…

Itv filmed Palestinian civilians waving a white flag being shot and killed by Israel this week.

"No intention to kill civilians" says this "soldier". Just pure lies.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#972

Glad to see Israel face some responsibility for its horrific acts against civilians. > The court ruled that Israel must do all it can to prevent genocide, including refraining from killing Palestinians or causing harm to them Sounds like a ceasefire to me. How else would they do this? Definitely not with any of the military tactics Israel is currently using.

Isn't this collateral damage of waging war with a terrorist organisation embedded in civilian population? I don't this this counts for genocide, as sad as the results are...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#973
post #867

[flagged]

We've had to warn you before not to post religious flamewar comments to HN (and also nationalistic and ideological flamewar comments). We end up having to ban accounts that do this repeatedly, because it's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. I don't want to ban you! So pleae don't do this on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Argh! I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to start a flamewar. And we have discussed this before, probably. (I have a 2 year old toddler. Sleep is... affected, I will just say that. And consequently, memory.)

I guess I do not yet understand the framework within which I can discuss this rationally (if at all), especially given this topic. If there is no such framework on HN, especially given the topic... That's what I'd like to understand.

I will try to remember this time :/ Sorry Dang!! Don't want to be an unnecessary burden!!

Question: If my comment had ONLY consisted of quotes from the Quran/Hadith, would that also be flagged?

I did my homework here (regarding the muslim thing) and the one unifying thing I found is the specific religious beliefs in Islam, which literally every terrorist quotes (here is one of many examples I found: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1481T5/). The difficulty I seem to be having here is me not understanding why this rational endeavour I undertook is somehow wrong. I feel like simply researching this was a mistake at this point, which is weird (and seemingly only applicable to this one topic- I have NOT found this to be the case with ANY other topic I've researched... but that is perhaps the nature and the danger with religious beliefs) https://newrepublic.com/article/81178/the-invention-islamoph...

Admittedly, some of my language was probably a bit edgy.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#974

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is tribalism. The primary goal is exclusive dominion, but a distant secondary goal of political and militaristic domination will suffice in the meantime. These aren’t my thoughts or conclusions but the stated goals of several of Israel’s most senior politicians, saying something to the effect of removing the inhabitants so that they can make the desert blossom. The problems here can be solved peacefully a…

Your solution is to make Jews a minority in their own country? The entire reason Israel was created is to have a safe place for Jews to exist and having the power to defend themselves. Imagining that just “tearing down the walls”, and “why can’t we all just gel along” will work is pretty naive, especially considering history .

Its not Naive, précisely regarding history. Look at how wars stopped in Europe beween or even within countries. People just started to get along after being tired of destroying each other.

The problem that prevents it in this case is religious extremists in both sides. For example there will never be peace as long as the israeli gov support west bank settlements toward the goal of a "great Israel". They are all extremely explicit about it and its not a conspiracy theory.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#975
post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've been breaking the site guidelines badly in this thread and your comments are very much not in the intended spirit, as I tried to explain it at the top. Please stop posting like this. (In case anyone is worried: yes, the exact same thing applies to the commenters you disagree with.) We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39148089 . Edit: it turns out we've had to ask you this many…

Perhaps your comment would be more constructive if you could say how my comments break the rules. Help me grow and help me follow the rules by being specific. - - - You say that you’d equally critique the opposite viewpoint, but that’s been factually untrue before: You censored people for pointing out in purely neutral terms, using videos of the people themselves giving interviews, that BLM was a Marxist organization…

> Perhaps your comment would be more constructive if you could say how my comments break the rules. Help me grow and help me follow the rules by being specific.

That would of course be best; the problem is that it takes far more time and energy to produce such explanations, if not more, than it does to write the ordinary sort of moderation reply. I don't have nearly enough cycles to be able to do that, so most of the time I have to rely on linking to the rules and trusting users to figure out how they broke them.

There's another aspect too: offering a detailed explanation frequently backfires, in the sense that the commenter comes back with a counterargument that's 2x or 5x as long, rejecting the explanation and making complex demands for further clarification. This doesn't always happen, but it's common. It's physically impossible to continue all such conversations to a satisfactory conclusion, but leaving them incomplete often leaves things in a worse state than not having tried.

That said, I'll try and give you a few details:

It ought to be obvious that beginning a comment with "Yawn." breaks HN's rule "Don't be snarky", and given the nature of this topic, also this rule: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Beyond that, several of your comments in this thread were full of flamewar rhetoric, by which I mean sensational/indignant language that escalates the hostility level in a discussion and comes across as aggressive to the other side, if not the other person. Not only is that not the curious conversation that HN is supposed to be for, it actively destroys it.

An example is your comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39148777. The first part ("Yawn.") was egregiously against HN's rules; you should never be posting that way, least of all on a topic this flameprone. The second sentence ("Opening a genocide trial is an implicit condemnation [etc.]") was fine from a guidelines point of view—it may be factually wrong, as some argued in response, but it isn't against HN's rules to be wrong in good faith, and I wouldn't have made a moderation reply to just that. If you had limited your comment to that sentence, it would have been fine.

The sentence after that, though ("Trying to score cheap rhetorical “gotchas” while avoiding the substance of the point is trite.") is an informationless putdown and name-calling of precisely the sort the HN guidelines ask people to omit. Moreover, it crosses into personal attack. You should never be posting that way to HN, least of all on a topic this divisive. And the final sentence ("Especially when you’re technically wrong.") does more of the same: it's a swipe, and unduly personal.

You're going to produce flamewars when you post like this to a large public internet forum (like HN) on the best of days. To do it in the context of the most inflammatory topic that exists right now is not ok at all. I realize that the comment you were replying to also was being provocative and also broke the site guidelines (by implying you hadn't read an article), but that doesn't make it ok to reply the way you did. Commenters need to follow the rules regardless of what others are doing; otherwise we just end up in a downward spiral.

More than that, you have a history of posting this sort of aggressive rhetoric and attacking other users on other topics as well (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38245766 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34185716). It should be obvious to anyone who is familiar with HN's guidelines that we have to ban accounts that post like that.

> my comment doesn’t seem any different than many others here you didn’t feel the need to critique

There are far too many posts for us to read them all. I spent the entire day in this thread yesterday, reading comments and posting moderation replies when I saw commenters breaking HN's rules regardless of their views on the underlying topic, and still didn't come close to seeing them all.

If you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. It's a mistake to assume that I saw a comment and just "didn't feel the need to critique". Worse, if you go from that to assuming that the mods must be biased against your viewpoint, that's more or less guaranteed to be a non sequitur. Everyone with strong feelings on a topic, on every side of every position, feels that way (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...).

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#976
post #975

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps your comment would be more constructive if you could say how my comments break the rules. Help me grow and help me follow the rules by being specific. - - - You say that you’d equally critique the opposite viewpoint, but that’s been factually untrue before: You censored people for pointing out in purely neutral terms, using videos of the people themselves giving interviews, that BLM was a Marxist organization…

> Perhaps your comment would be more constructive if you could say how my comments break the rules. Help me grow and help me follow the rules by being specific. That would of course be best; the problem is that it takes far more time and energy to produce such explanations, if not more, than it does to write the ordinary sort of moderation reply. I don't have nearly enough cycles to be able to do that, so most of the…

I appreciate the time to make a detailed reply.

> Everyone with strong feelings on a topic, on every side of every position, feels that way

As a small aside, do you have a page that explains the comment search?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#977
post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All correct and yet, what should happen? Happy, fed, employed people do not become terrorists. They have too much to lose.

Not if they have more to gain in 'heaven'. Remember, Hamas are religious fanatics.

and the IDF is not? There's a lot of videos showing the IDF dancing holding up Torah scroll in destroyed hospitals or buildings.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#978
post #859

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found the exact opposite. NPR, for example, spends a lot of time humanizing Gazans and showing that Israel is terrorizing them, quite literally. NPR also frequently talked about the right wing/nationalist power seizures leading up to this. Before the war, I think a good number of Americans saw Israel blowing up the Associated Press offices. It hardly matters what the excuse was. I feel like every week I've hea…

You live in a bubble and do not see coverage from Fox, CNN, or NYT.

Fox, CNN and NYT are boomer news. I am sure many people still get their opinions and ideologies from those sources but I think its pretty evident that they are waning in popularity

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#979

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People said Apartheid South Africa couldn't end without a bloodbath. People said peace in Northern Ireland was impossible. People thought the Cold War would never end. Impossible things are impossible until they aren't. I'm not saying that any of these things are easy - they clearly are not. But history shows us again and again that change is possible when people work towards it in good faith. From a practical point…

The Palestine/Israel conflict is significantly longer than any of the examples you gave. Which is not to say that its impossible. But the older I get, the less hope I have.

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#980

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yea I tried that. I posted links to all my sources as well as opinions from credible human rights organizations. they just play the game of being obtuse to the very end and then gaslight you about needing to backup my opinions as if there weren't at least 2-3 inks for every assertion I make. one side of this debate is very much NOT acting in good faith because they rely on the status quo being maintained to continue…

I think that's in part because the sources that were once credible, i.e. NGOs, universities, media, and other cultural institutions, have taken a hit to their own reputation as a result of their institutional capture over the years. For every article you can find in support of one camp, one could find a counter piece from other credible sources as well (i.e. NYT vs The Economist and The Atlantic). For every NGO one c…

> Ultimately, bad faith actors are indeed the root cause of the problem. However, I think the bigger problem here is the inability of these bad faith actors to recognize that belong to the very group they're criticizing. If facts were all that mattered, I would expect to see more people expressing more nuanced takes, or express more uncertainty.

I don't think it is due to "bad faith actors" at all. I think it is better explained by (1) Israel/Palestine is a really hard problem, one where both sides have done wrong, and the "side" one is on often comes down with which wrong angers you more (which is more a question of subjective emotions than objective reasons), (2) the increasing tribalism and political polarisation of Western (and especially US) society, which gets overlaid on the Israel/Palestine conflict, however roughly (right-leaning people nowadays skew pro-Israel and left-leaning pro-Palestine, although there are an ever-shrinking number of exceptions to both generalisations)

The "bad faith actors" explanation is attractive precisely because it paints the problem as simpler and less intractable than it actually is

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