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Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#921

Post by soheil »

kaoD wrote: post #740
soheil wrote: post #602

"The aforementioned wife began a pattern of passive aggressive behavior that included sitting close to Horvath, to, as she told TechCrunch, “make a point of intimidating” her." Get a freaking life, go sit somewhere else if you see her sitting close to you. And are you a mind-reader? What if she wasn't being "passive aggressive" and just wanted to sit there! Unbelievable how as soon as a woman is involved in tech indu…

> What if she wasn't being "passive aggressive" and just wanted to sit there! ...day after day, staring at her, after a weird out of office interaction where she was openly aggressive? The wife was obviously trying to intimidate her and you seem to be the only individual trying to deny it. > If you're standing up against a female well you're not helping the women cause. Women can be sexist bigots just like men. > Gee…

Why expect people to behave the way you want them to? If you don't like where you're sitting move, other people are not responsible for how you feel. Again are you a mind-reader how do you know what her intention was?

"Geeks might subconsciously want to backlash for their lack of sexual attention" wow, you have it backwards, not seeking sex by geeks does not mean they're secretly seeking it! Reason you're a geek is because you're dedicated to one thing and spend lots of time doing it and ignoring other things, because everything else has a lower priority. Many "outraged" women in tech and people like you don't seem to get that, it's not a reflection on those women it's a reflection on us.

We are men building shit. I am a male I am in tech if I could've make that more specific I would have. You have no right to impose on me what specificity level I wish to use in my speech or writings. You are right I am not a fairy I am real and I will stand up to this non-sense every time I see it. And hope others here are not intimidated by people like you or outraged women in tech or New York Times articles or complete crap pieces on Tech Crunch.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#922

Post by mendicantB »

keithpeter wrote: post #361
buro9 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nebulous semi-employee with unspecified responsibilities related to a founder? This is the point that stands out for me. That the wife is not an employee of Github but claims to be able to access private company chat records, and also is able to "work" from within the office and interact with the staff. Even with allowances that company property remains company property and private chat rooms are in fact non-privat…

"Who can access private company data, why, and for what reason?" This seems to me to be the major takeaway for organisations outside github from this sorry affair. I'm sort of surprised you are the only person to raise this so far. In the UK, the employee who resigned could have a successful day in an employment tribunal. And one aspect of the hearing would be privacy and the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act pr…

So spot on. Considering recent privacy issues, Github needs to be careful to respond on this. It has potential to explode into an entirely separate shitstorm.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#923

Post by nostrademons »

johnbm wrote: post #847
jessedhillon wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it might bother you because the author assumes that's his own inability to navigate complex social relationships is innate to his maleness. In fact, many men are adept at understanding social and emotional subtexts very well. There's no magnitude-order difference in innate ability as described, or if there is, it's not a permanent, unlearnable gulf. This comment bothered me because OP is fetishizing and token…

See, the problem is that the people who complain about this are also the ones who say it's valuable to add women to a group of men (or indeed the reverse), because it results in more balanced decision making. It can't be both. Either men or women are (as groups, i.e. averages) innately differ on the social vs analytical axis, and diversity is a net plus, or gender is entirely socially constructed, and adding women to…

There's a big difference between "on average, women are more socially adept while men are more mathematically adept" and "women socially understand things at a level most men will never achieve". The former is a statement about averages; the latter is a statement about absolutes.

It's okay to make generalizations based on imperfect correlates - like gender - as long as you understand they're generalizations, and are open to revising your judgment if new, more specific information appears. The comment that sparked this thread didn't evidence any of that understanding.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#924

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #798
GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_property

I don't think that property acquired during the marriage extends to jobs.

No but it does to stock.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#925

Post by dcre »

cossatot wrote: post #623
facepalm wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's really a huge stretch to go from oogling of hula hoopers to "feeling unsafe". What, after watching some women do hoola hoop men suddenly turn into rapists? That's 100% in her head and sounds slightly crazy to me, to be honest. Not even going to strip clubs turns men into rapists on a regular basis... I think that accusation is completely unwarranted (from the sounds of it).

Something that has become clear to me fairly late in life is how sensitive many women are to feeling sexually threatened, and I've noticed this even in my wife, who is an incredibly adventurous person (e.g. she has lead multiple months-long geological expeditions in Tibet where she is both the only woman and the only Westerner). I think it's a brain-stem type reaction, not a rational one, but once people begin to fee…

I don't think it's a "sexual threat." I think it's more that we're only a couple of decades out (less in some places) from office women mostly being for typing and for looking at. Women being watched hula-hooping just feels regressive.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#927

Post by dsuth »

chippy wrote: post #496
wyclif wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found that episode terribly confused, and I never understood the rationale behind it. Isn't "meritocracy" a value and environment that feminists have told us over and over again is a positive development for women? Don't women want to work in a "meritocracy" precisely because their work will be valued and appreciated not because they are women but because excellence at work knows no sex, colour, or creed?

The reasoning goes like this: "Meritocracy is all well and good as a theory. It's all about who decides what merit is. If it's a privileged group of people who decide the merit, then it's going to be biased. Thus championing meritocracy in this organisation means upholding a hierarchy which is unfair, biased and oppressive to those outside of the people at the top". In other words, meritocracy = an aristocracy of whi…

It's so sad to see things like this twisted around by people with too much time and an axe to grind. I don't think anyone expects to put down a mat and claim 'Mission Accomplished' on building a meritocracy. Or any other vision statement from a company or person.

The whole purpose of these statements is to represent an ideal to strive for. Things like this are exactly what give militant feminists and other PC groups a bad name.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#928

Post by varkson »

yeukhon wrote: post #183

There seems to be several problems. Not entirely sexism. 1. Founder's wife asked Horvath out and gave her a lecture about who is the boss. Probably out of jealousy. 2. Founder's wife physically inanimate Horvath, making her unwelcome and scared. 3. Founder did not stop the wife and protect his wife. 4. Horvath was approached by a male co-worker and according to her her rejection had caused tension between her and tha…

>female co-workers hula-hooping while sitting in a couch

That sounds like a spectacle. I'd watch it regardless of male or female doing it.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#929

Post by azernik »

reneherse wrote: post #840
michaelt wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a line manager decides to make sure an employee stops doing something, it's actually several conversations: 1. A friendly conversation in which the manager points out the problem, establishes that they expect it to stop, but that if it stops immediately it'll all be forgotten. 2. A less friendly conversation in which the manager says I thought we were clear that you aren't supposed to do it. You're still doing i…

Regarding conversation number 3. Why give a hostile employee time to retaliate? Just give them the choice of resigning or being fired, but make both effective immediately. GOT fans will remember Ned Stark made a similar mistake.

A) If you push people to make a choice immediately, they may out of emotion make a choice (firing) that is more costly for you.

B) The whole point of conversation 3 is that it's true; by this point, you need to know for sure that the political situation is under your control. To go even more GOT on this - Ned bargained as if he were in a position of strength, when his position was in fact very shaky.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#930

Post by nnq »

I propose to show our sympathy towards the nice people at github by just forgetting this non-story ever existed. Or, it existed, but it was a whole different story, that had nothing to do with sexism and more to do with another woman being in a position of power and maybe using that for a non obvious purpose.

...witch hunts are cool and all, and they are even cooler when they are done "to save"/"for the rights of" women/children/etc., but you're only giving more power to the "troll" that started this in the first place, either her or someone using her, for god knows what agenda (I bet it's just part of power fight inside the company, and somebody tries to redirect some discrimination related anger collected from the interwebs against his/her opponent ...we really shouldn't let ourselves manipulated into joining this fight we know nothing about).

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