Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit • Hacker News Board

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#581

Post by dylanrw » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:41 PM UTC

Based on this article I see a few things, and some alarming ones that make me question the source. Also, hopefully to prevent me from sounding like too much of an ass, I'll use the following as the definition of sexism: "Sexism or gender discrimination is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender."

- The wife situation: Awkward/horrible. Either the wife is crazy with jealousy issues or we're missing a portion of the story. Presuming this is the entirety of the facts, I think it's plain that the woman isn't going around approaching male colleagues of the founder and harassing them. So I guess she's acting this way due to the JAH's sex, but it just sounds like a boundary issue to me rather than rote sexism. I'm surprised policy doesn't exist to prevent this sort of thing inside GH.

- Rebuffed advances being handled poorly. I'm surprised that she's surprised by this, she's dating a coworker, she's introduced the concept of coworkers being viable dating options. Yes I'm sure she was approached because she's female, heterosexual males will do this. Male or female. Of course the person was disrespectful for approaching even if she was in a relationship, people will be clueless/rude, whether they work with you or not. The passive aggressive reverts, and the lack of power to abate them sounds like a lack of leverage on her part, and while she may chalk the entire thing up to her lack of pull due to being female, I see this as a symptom of the cabal syndrome you often see in self managed companies.

- I think it's obvious that she's sensitive to sexist issues, even on the side of seeing it in places where it may not exist. There are even a few cases where she could even be exhibiting the behavior herself ie: Not talking to the hula-hoopers themselves (why are not capable of defending themselves?), claiming the men present were gawking (but not mentioning any other spectators), "always looking to meet women I can look up to." (I'd be seen as an ass by many if I looked for "men to look up to"), "confused and insulted to think that a woman who was not employed by my company was pulling the strings" what does the fact that she's a woman have to do with it? (This is a stretch I know but every time someone is mentioned their sex is brought up, why?)

- The real major theme I see is, "I was treated poorly." Yes this happens, just not always to a highly public, touchy social subject-matter expert in this field, who then releases the story to the press (vendetta much?).

It's a shame that theres dirt in the garden of Github, shockingly it's a real company run by real people. I'd carry on with making great software; always try and make sure I'm not putting up barriers (intentional or otherwise) to the entry of the just as capable minorities in this field; always strive to see the difference between true injustice and someone's poor decisions, their sensitivities, and a really messed up corporate experience.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#582

Post by yawboakye » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:41 PM UTC

theorique wrote: post #79

asimov42 wrote: post #41

That hula hoops bit was a bit... strange. If it were a couple of attractive girls I probably would also find myself staring. I mean, its just not something you see everyday working at an office. I understand being stared at is uncomfortable too, and they should feel free to do whatever they want of course. It just sounds like how unattractive people "stare creepily" while attractive people "look."

Watching your co-workers as they hula-hoop in the office doesn't sound terribly sexist or out of the ordinary [1]. Hula hooping in the office is offbeat enough that you'd expect people to stop and look And it's certainly not the some kind of 'last straw' sexist incident. Obviously, what happened is that Horvath was already upset from the weirdness that had transpired thus far - and based on the article, it does sound…

She chose to be upset by falsely matching male co-workers watching (I don't want to use her word, gawking, because it's her subjective conclusion) safe-to-assume attractive female co-workers "hula hooping in the office." Especially none of her business if the girls were aware they had the attention of the gentlemen. Who knows, they may have appreciated the attention.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#583

Post by glitchdout » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:43 PM UTC

lancewiggs wrote: post #250

What should Github do? My take: The founder leaves, at least for six months, and his wife has no further involvement ever. The clueless spurned programmer leaves, at very least works from home for six months or more but is preferably publicly fired. His behaviour is unacceptably unprofessional and as good as he might be it's not good enough to destroy a culture. The entire team (and many commenters here need this too…

> The entire team (and many commenters here need this too) get coached on why its rude to stare at people, even if they are hula hooping or different.

You can't possibly be serious.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#584

Post by nailer » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:43 PM UTC

korzun wrote: post #123

potatolicious wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "but isn't it to be expected that employees of a tech company will be somewhat socially awkward?" Reverting people's commits and stripping their code out of vengeance isn't social awkwardness, it's completely unacceptable and unprofessional conduct. It doesn't matter what gender anyone is, or that it's being done out of romantic rejection, it's unacceptable. Full stop. Author's complaint is evidently less about bei…

It's easy to assume things that were said without context. Was her code reverted at 12:00 AM because it broke the site? Or was it for something else? If so what? See how the context changes your opinion? Generic 'they reverted my code!' statement does not tell me anything.

My normal rule is 'talk then revert', normally making sure that someone knows and agrees with the revert, to avoid a commit war. If everything's on fire and you can't talk, then you can skip talking.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#585

Post by commandar » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:43 PM UTC

dannypgh wrote: post #543

einhverfr wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The founder's wife story also reminds me of episodes I've heard involving the wife cabal. It's nothing as sinister as the GitHub story, but I see a lot of the same structural issues reflected in these telling anecdotes. If you are male and a founder, one of your most valuable business resources is your wife. People will call me sexist for saying this, I expect, but women think socially with a level of complexity th…

If your spouse is helping contribute to the business on that level, you should hire them. Otherwise you're really doing a disservice to everyone by having your spouse work without compensation or recognition.

> without compensation or recognition.

Or, as this story demonstrates, accountability.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#586

Post by achompas » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:45 PM UTC

greenrd wrote: post #407

facepalm wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's really a huge stretch to go from oogling of hula hoopers to "feeling unsafe". What, after watching some women do hoola hoop men suddenly turn into rapists? That's 100% in her head and sounds slightly crazy to me, to be honest. Not even going to strip clubs turns men into rapists on a regular basis... I think that accusation is completely unwarranted (from the sounds of it).

If her problem with it was that some random other guy openly finding some random other girl attractive in her workplace "makes her feel unsafe", then that would be highly hypocritical, as she admits she was dating a coworker and that other coworkers knew this, which can only encourage others to think it's OK to make romantic advances to coworkers. I mean, you can't have it both ways. If you think men and women should…

I believe the article mentions how she started dating the coworker before joining Github.

Even if she started dating him after she joined, you need to take the whole thing in context. The founder's wife is attempting to inject herself into their relationship, and a guy hits on her and punishes her for rejecting him. In context, the hula hooping episode can easily be a trigger for the allegedly sexist culture at GitHub.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#587

Post by jessedhillon » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:45 PM UTC

ZoF wrote: post #517

einhverfr wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The founder's wife story also reminds me of episodes I've heard involving the wife cabal. It's nothing as sinister as the GitHub story, but I see a lot of the same structural issues reflected in these telling anecdotes. If you are male and a founder, one of your most valuable business resources is your wife. People will call me sexist for saying this, I expect, but women think socially with a level of complexity th…

This post really bothers me somehow. Edit: Figured out why. I don't understand why saying, "people will call me sexist for this" immediately validates your statement as "not intended to be sexist". >"If you are male and a founder, one of your most valuable business resources is your wife. People will call me sexist for saying this, I expect, but women think socially with a level of complexity that I think most men ne…

I think it might bother you because the author assumes that's his own inability to navigate complex social relationships is innate to his maleness. In fact, many men are adept at understanding social and emotional subtexts very well. There's no magnitude-order difference in innate ability as described, or if there is, it's not a permanent, unlearnable gulf.

This comment bothered me because OP is fetishizing and tokenizing women in a way that purports to be admiring and supportive of them. In fact, he simply has weak social skills; for example, this post.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#588

Post by froxle » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:48 PM UTC

mwhite wrote: post #34

Well, there are only three Github founders, and a quick search seems to indicate that Tom Preston-Werner is the only one with a wife, Theresa: http://techcrunch.com/2013/11/27/omakase-charity-tech-indust...

> Tom Preston-Werner is the only one with a wife

This is not true.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#589

Post by cossatot » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:53 PM UTC

marincounty wrote: post #548

einhverfr wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The founder's wife story also reminds me of episodes I've heard involving the wife cabal. It's nothing as sinister as the GitHub story, but I see a lot of the same structural issues reflected in these telling anecdotes. If you are male and a founder, one of your most valuable business resources is your wife. People will call me sexist for saying this, I expect, but women think socially with a level of complexity th…

I guess I'm too jaded, but I question getting married. If you hit the lottery and you become a successful Founder, your wife will own 1/2 of all those aching hours sitting in front of that screen. If she's the type of chick that will stick with you when you loose everything and work the paint booth at HD, by all means marry her, but those women just don't exist anymore. Women look at men so differently than we judge…

I seriously hope you consider rethinking this position. There are a tremendous number of incredible women in the world, and most of them are not looking for a sugar daddy. Many women also work hard for their careers, passions, or some combination of both, and understand that both success and failure happen.

I will also say that in many instances, if you have this opinion about women (or any group of persons), it's probably somewhat evident in your interactions with them, and you may not be treated quite as well as you would be otherwise. This can be self-reinforcing, but unfortunately the responsibility lies with you to pull yourself out of it and get some perspective.

If you don't, well, get a strong pre-nup, I guess, or stay single forever.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#590

Post by joshbert » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:56 PM UTC

amix wrote: post #422

Allegation that a wife of a founder can read private chats at GitHub makes me question GitHub's privacy and security... I would love if we would have a statement of GitHub on this matter since it would be a huge privacy breach (and something that would make us move all of our private repos outside of GitHub). (posted this as a comment on the article as well)

That is largely the stand out of the article for me. I know this story will be forgotten and buried in no more than a week, but until they address this, I'm going to use BitBucket instead.