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Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#401

Post by greenrd »

Systemic33 wrote: post #218
Aqueous wrote: post #120

I'm not entirely sure the hula-hooping incident - merely observing girls hula hooping is not a crime, is it? - by itself constitutes a hostile atmosphere for women, unless inappropriate comments were being made. What we have here is some completely inappropriate, cloak and dagger, soap opera shit being perpetrated by the wife of the cofounder, who has no business meddling in the affairs of his employees. (If true, th…

Ye, calling this sexism, is either an editorial edit by TC, for reasons I can only assume is high clickbait title, or JAH has some issues herself, which it seems like considering that she thought watching girls hulahoop is sexist.

The article, strangely, begins with JAH already having an unspecified grievance against GitHub and the founder's wife pleading with her not to leave GitHub and blog publicly about it. It's strange that at no time has JAH specified what this grievance was, but my educated guess based on her tweets and her blog post from a year ago would be, previous additional incidents of sexism or perceived sexism.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#402

Post by dfraser992 »

mynameishere wrote: post #28

Crazy how women can turn even canonically geeky/boring things like Github into soap operas like "General Hospital". You've got to wonder what kind of drama occurs in actual hospitals, with alpha-doctors and nurses side-by-side. I've heard stories.

Women are a lot more orientated towards relationships and the nuances of such. Lots of reasons why, but basically it is due to the basic psychological differences between the sexes, and society's reinforcement of them through imposed social norms. A very general statement of course, and you certainly can find exceptions... And things are changing, and have been changing ever since 1960s and feminism kicked off.

but it still is a difference - males under 40 (in general) are more orientated towards their status aka power aka wealth aka etc - in order to acquire the prime females... So to expect semi-arrogant king of the world 20-something men who are typically hyperlogical and socially inept (yes, lot of generalization) and who are hell bent on making a mark for themselves to really grok the subtle aspects of social behaviors.... I remember when I was 20-something and I was CLUELESS.

So in other words, yet another story about an extremely immature industry too full of themselves and soaked with money. Is Github even that important in the largest sense of the word? no, it isn't. At this point in my life, I realize how IT sucks so hard and is in some sense a detriment to the future of humanity. I want to go back to school to become an English major, BTW... the humanities are far more important than this uber-hyper-capitalism we've created likes to admit.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#403

Post by [deleted] »

cbsmith wrote: post #292
csense wrote: post #64

I don't think this was an instance of institutionalized sexism. Rather, the founder's wife seems like an unbalanced individual, and nobody effectively set any boundaries. The other founders and HR seemed unaware or unable to set the situation to right. As for her romantically inclined co-worker -- I don't see how his behavior qualifies as sexist or hostile. Merely a bit clueless, but isn't it to be expected that empl…

> As for her romantically inclined co-worker -- I don't see how his behavior qualifies as sexist or hostile. Merely a bit clueless, but isn't it to be expected that employees of a tech company will be somewhat socially awkward? Oh please, that's about as sexist and as hostile as it gets between programmers. I agree it should be expected that some employees of a tech company will be somewhat socially awkward --just as…

[deleted]

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#404

Post by michaelt »

megablast wrote: post #295
sgentle wrote: post #235

Ouch. What a terrible situation. I'm holding out for the other side of the story, but unless you're willing to assume the entire thing is invented this is a major fuckup for GitHub. I think this is a classic problem with companies making the transition from small startup to regular business. Break down the barriers! Flat management! Kill bureaucracy and embrace no-politics DIY organisation! The article reads like an…

> "Oh, okay, I'll talk to him and make sure it stops." Can I come live in your world where everything is solved by a quick talk.

When a line manager decides to make sure an employee stops doing something, it's actually several conversations:

1. A friendly conversation in which the manager points out the problem, establishes that they expect it to stop, but that if it stops immediately it'll all be forgotten.

2. A less friendly conversation in which the manager says I thought we were clear that you aren't supposed to do it. You're still doing it, WTF? Depending on the problem maybe the employee has some reason/excuse and you need to do something to help them with it/remove it as an excuse.

If the employee is the cynical type, the aim is to establish that while you have an incentive to keep him (because you want good employees on your team), now you've taken a stance on his behaviour, letting him walk all over you would harm your reputation as a competent manager, so the incentive to keep him isn't the only one.

3. A conversation where you tell them you've started the ball rolling on getting rid of them. It's nothing personal, but the employee's actions mean your hands are tied. You've already cleared it with political allies they have at the company who could stop it. Here are the numbers of some recruiters if they'd prefer to jump before they're pushed.

4. A conversation where they are fired.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#405

Post by icarus127 »

shadowmint wrote: post #371
sgentle wrote: post #235

Ouch. What a terrible situation. I'm holding out for the other side of the story, but unless you're willing to assume the entire thing is invented this is a major fuckup for GitHub. I think this is a classic problem with companies making the transition from small startup to regular business. Break down the barriers! Flat management! Kill bureaucracy and embrace no-politics DIY organisation! The article reads like an…

I've always been broadly under the impression that the HR department was a waste of air, but I suppose conflict resolution is perhaps something they'd be useful for. ...maybe.

At my previous job I thought the same thing. They didn't stop people being bullied by superiors and basically did nothing but exit interviews and layoffs. The entire company was really dysfunctional. At my current job HR is _supremely_ competent. The entire organization is more functional and a joy to work for. I think there are subtle but significant effects when people know that it is not okay to behave in a bullying or discriminatory manner because HR takes those things seriously.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#406

Post by Ensorceled »

froo wrote: post #369
kansface wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow, furtive glances doesn't come across much better.

Try getting sternly lectured for 10 minutes because because you held the door open for a stranger to be polite. That's when you know shit gotten real. For the record, I routinely hold open doors for people that I know are behind me and are leaving/entering a building. It surprised me to know end to get yelled at for it.

I'm Canadian too! And been lectured to about it.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#407

Post by greenrd »

facepalm wrote: post #372
harshreality wrote: post #190

The article quotes JAH's email as saying, "Two women, one of whom I work with and adore, and a friend of hers were hula hooping to some music. I didn’t have a problem with this. What I did have a problem with is the line of men sitting on one bench facing the hoopers and gawking at them. It looked like something out of a strip club. When I brought this up to male coworkers, they didn’t see a problem with it. But for…

I think it's really a huge stretch to go from oogling of hula hoopers to "feeling unsafe". What, after watching some women do hoola hoop men suddenly turn into rapists? That's 100% in her head and sounds slightly crazy to me, to be honest. Not even going to strip clubs turns men into rapists on a regular basis... I think that accusation is completely unwarranted (from the sounds of it).

If her problem with it was that some random other guy openly finding some random other girl attractive in her workplace "makes her feel unsafe", then that would be highly hypocritical, as she admits she was dating a coworker and that other coworkers knew this, which can only encourage others to think it's OK to make romantic advances to coworkers.

I mean, you can't have it both ways. If you think men and women should always without exception be only cold and businesslike towards each other in your workplace, then don't date a coworker. Isn't that obvious?

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#408

Post by stretchwithme »

girvo wrote: post #383
froo wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try getting sternly lectured for 10 minutes because because you held the door open for a stranger to be polite. That's when you know shit gotten real. For the record, I routinely hold open doors for people that I know are behind me and are leaving/entering a building. It surprised me to know end to get yelled at for it.

I had that happen, so I laughed. Then she got really angry... doesn't stop me, though. I hold the door for everyone, because it's polite , not because someone is whatever gender.

Dudes do it for dudes all the time. Its just one more way to acknowledge others, as is thanking someone that holds the door for you.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#409

Post by greenrd »

lsiebert wrote: post #329
nknighthb wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being ridiculous. Emergency reverts are normal and expected when production systems are down. I'm willing to stipulate this person's specific actions were probably hostile and unwarranted, but some sort of blanket "no revert without discussion" rule is just a way to cost your employer customers. Context is important, and we don't have enough of it to be certain of what happened.

There may be legit reasons, but we have no indication that the reasons were legit. We do have someone involved who says they weren't. We should assume she is being truthful and accurate unless there is a reason to doubt her. If github says the reverts were legit, then that's different, but you should go with the best information we have, instead of trying to find an excuse not to believe her based on no evidence.

Isn't the Secret post screenshotted in the article itself one reason to doubt her character? Of course it may be all lies... it's just an anonymous comment and anyone could have written it, including the guy whose advances she spurned.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#410

Post by froo »

girvo wrote: post #383
froo wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try getting sternly lectured for 10 minutes because because you held the door open for a stranger to be polite. That's when you know shit gotten real. For the record, I routinely hold open doors for people that I know are behind me and are leaving/entering a building. It surprised me to know end to get yelled at for it.

I had that happen, so I laughed. Then she got really angry... doesn't stop me, though. I hold the door for everyone, because it's polite , not because someone is whatever gender.

> I hold the door for everyone, because it's polite, not because someone is whatever gender.

Exactly why I do it.

I've resigned myself to the fact that some people are just assholes. It's a trait that's not gender specific.

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