Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

reasonstobecheerful.world

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 366 posts

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#91

Post by reegnz »

martinald wrote: post #35
onli wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Repairable hardware is just the one side, security updates needs to be available as well. We need mandated open sourcing of device software (including firmware and drivers + unlocking of the bootloader) after the support timerange, or at the very least alternatively the obligation to continue security updates for decades.

Who is actually going to update this even if it is open source though? There are so many drivers and firmware in a smartphone, nevermind the tens of thousands of models of smartphones out there. It would require an army of people to patch, test and distribute everything. That's even if you can figure out all this code.

It's not about 'who's going to do it' but about 'if I want to do it, I can'.

I would really like to hack on a tablet I have that's 5 years old, but I can't because the firmware and drivers are both closed source.

I think when I buy a device, I should get the source code to it once the manufacturer decides it's not worth it for them to continue patching the software for the device I've bought.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#92

Post by Scoundreller »

magicalhippo wrote: post #45

Just yesterday my SO told me the subwoofer was broken. It's a wireless unit, which pairs with the soundbar, which I got with my TV about 5 years ago. I quickly come to the conclusion the power supply is broken. And of course the power supply is internal. I tried to open up the thing, being fairly competent with electronics. But try as I might, I just couldn't figure out how this thing comes apart. I don't want to bru…

Bad caps?

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#93

Post by emteycz »

Scoundreller wrote: post #89
emteycz wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had multiple manufacturers of kitchen appliances send me schematics so I could fix it myself instead of paying for a service visit. Many vendors have service guides online, including lists of parts. That's not hostile at all. You have to choose what you're buying, but it's not hard to buy from a solid company.

I had to fix my circa 2005 Kenmore dryer and it had a folded up paper schematic behind the panel!!! Note: whenever throwing those things out, save the knobs. They’re like $10+ each.

Indeed, a lot of appliances have the schematics embedded. My ETA oven does too.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#94

Post by ossuser »

larelli wrote: post #66
nfriedly wrote: post #52

I just replaced the battery in my Pixel 2 this past weekend. It was a 2-3 hour project that involved a whole kit of tools in addition to the new battery. It was a PITA, but I am thankful that a) iFixit provided a helpful guide and a kit with all of the things I needed except for the rubbing alcohol and b) it was legal and there weren't any software issues to deal with. Aside from the aging battery and occasionally ru…

I'm in the same boat. What kept me from replacing the battery is that the device is EOL and won't receive any software updates, including security fixes. Did you also change the firmware?

Just switch to Calyx or Graphene, Pixel 2 is well supported

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#95

Post by dvdkon »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #70
mrweasel wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people don’t adopt a mindset of repair/upgrade and just continue to replace devices at the same rate, then sure more material is going to be used. Those devices will be easier to take apart and recycle though. This isn’t just about phones and laptops, but also appliances, and people aren’t really upgrading fridges or stowes because a new model is available. Many only get new cars because the repair bill now exceed…

> Those devices will be easier to take apart and recycle though. That's not a given. For things like smartphones I would much rather they enact laws to make them more recyclable than more repairable. And, let's be honest, smartphones don't require repairs often, if at all. Most common issue is probably shattered screen and that is already replaceable everywhere. > and people aren’t really upgrading fridges or stowes…

> smartphones don't require repairs often

I've had people come to me with broken screens, old batteries, non-functional/muffled earpieces, wonky USB connectors, cracked lenses and other problems. Smartphones do require repairs and people, at least the ones I know, do want to repair them. But when I tell them the part will take a month to arrive and might not have the same quality as the original, not to mention the non-zero risk of cosmetic damage during disassembly, I can't blame them for rather buying a new phone.

My parents have a washing machine that's now over 15 years old. It still gets repairs regularly. The parts cost is going up though, because they haven't been made in a long time now. Imagine how long we could keep this washing machine if the parts were standardised or their CAD files available online, maybe some manufacturer would be making clones of them right now.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#96

Post by [deleted] »

globile wrote: post #61
fridek wrote: post #5

I can't describe how much I hope something comes out of it. Not because I have some illusion of this tackling corporate greed, or helping the environment - devices will likely become more expensive and bulkier as a result, supply chain of replacement parts is generating heaps of waste too. I simply am surrounded by tens and hundreds of sort-of-broken devices that don't force me to replace yet, but are not fixable eit…

Phone unlocking doesn't get much attention, but it is an integral part that no one wants to address or get their hands dirty with. There are many more locked phones in drawers or acting as mere paperweights than people actually care to disclose. Several years back we ran a poll to understand lifetime recycling habits. People aren't proud of dropping a phone and shattering the screen, but they are less proud of having…

[deleted]

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#97

Post by eeZah7Ux »

wombatmobile wrote: post #48

I strongly prefer to repair devices and am reluctant to throw any broken manufactured good out, even when I have poor prospects of repairing them. Instead, I just hold on to them. Phones, stereos, vacuum cleaners, clocks, computers. My shelves are full of broken items, and good intentions, frozen in amber. Why do I think like this? I think it is a psychological condition. It isn't a rational choice. If I apply my edu…

> I think it is a psychological condition.

People can have trouble letting go of obsoleted, unneeded object due to some emotional attachment.

[Unless you hoard socially acceptable items, like status symbols or plain money, in that case most people will not see the problem]

> an espresso machine ... performs twice as well as an equivalent device from 50 years ago

...or not. A rational reason for fixing stuff is that many products are objectively worse.

> My feelings are not economics, they are emotions

Another perfectly rational reason is prevent environmental collapse. It does not get more reasonable than that.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#98

Post by Scoundreller »

macspoofing wrote: post #65
readflaggedcomm wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When repair labor costs more than automated production, then it's cheaper to replace whole units than mend parts. This is very much in line when what the Luddites understood. Fixation on "waste" is a by-product of unrelated worries which are fashionable today, but cheap production at a distance is what labor should worry about, instead.

>When repair labor costs more than automated production, then it's cheaper to replace whole units than mend parts We're not there yet. There are profitable businesses that can do repair and/or replacement of broken soldered IC chips in laptops and smartphones (see YouTube channels of Jessa Jones and Louis Rossmann). So cost of repair is not a barrier in many cases. The problems they highlight, that should be very eas…

Yes and no, supply chain restrictions leads to some funny outcomes.

When I parted out my 2012 MacBook Air in 2016, I came close to covering the full cost of my brand new 2016 MB Air.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#99

Post by reegnz »

iamsb wrote: post #75
fridek wrote: post #5

I can't describe how much I hope something comes out of it. Not because I have some illusion of this tackling corporate greed, or helping the environment - devices will likely become more expensive and bulkier as a result, supply chain of replacement parts is generating heaps of waste too. I simply am surrounded by tens and hundreds of sort-of-broken devices that don't force me to replace yet, but are not fixable eit…

I sincerely hope that providing upgrades to software is also included as part of this. The only device I have which I dont actively use or give away is a Samsung galaxy tab which never received a single Android OS upgrade. I think it is reasonable for a consumer of a software+hardware integrated device to expect upgrades of software for say 3-5 years.

Guaranteed upgrade cadence is not enough. I think what would be regulated is that they MUST open source afther that 3-5 years.

Just as we have with pharma patents, after a protection period it should be free game, and they should open-source if they don't intend to continue pushing updates, say evety 6 months or so.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#100

Post by acka »

RHSeeger wrote: post #67
syshum wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My phone today is completely usable but the carrier has decided to stop issuing updates to the phone.... This is the worst kind of planned obsolesces

Creating those updates costs money. At what point is the cost no longer worth it? It is not realistic for companies to support every phone forever; I think that's something we can all agree on. Would you be willing to pay whatever your share is of how much generating the update would cost, in order to get it? With a clear indicator when you buy the phone that you automatically get a subscription to 3 years worth of s…

In my opinion, manufacturers who cannot be bothered to provide updates to their software should not be allowed to claim intellectual property rights on the hardware. When support ends, drivers and documentation should be made open source, enforceable by law if need be.
Post reply on HN