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Abolish the Cash Bail System

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Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#91

Post by bawolff »

kelnos wrote: post #63
bawolff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

I would rather see 10 guilty people flee before their trial and escape justice, than see one innocent person get stuck in jail pre-trial because they couldn't cough up the cash for a bail bond, causing them to lose their job and ruin their life. Means testing flat-out doesn't work. There are plenty of people who get caught in the system who can afford exactly zero dollars for bail, and I find it damn near impossible…

Arent people often let go without having to pay bail? At least i think that's how it works in canada (where im from) if they dont think its likely you will try to run and its not a particularly serious offence

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#92

Post by mjevans »

kepler1 wrote: post #76

You know, systems were established for a reason . It's not like the cash bail system was some ridiculous fanciful notion that someone created to torture the poor. We have arrested people pay cash bail so that we have some forcing function to ensure that they don't flee. And maybe a little bit to provide people the incentive not to commit crime in the first place. I don't know why, but that seems to be considered disc…

Cash Bail is a regressive tax upon the poor and those whom law enforcement selectively target.

If someone is a danger, or a flight risk, maybe they shouldn't be out at all if that's the determination reached by a judge.

--

Secondary points, the social movement. I strongly agree that Police REFORM is necessary. At least in the US things are bad enough that a not-small portion of the population feels the police are out to get them, or at best unlikely to be a positive influence on any outcome. Peace Officers are necessary. A recognition that many situations require de-escalation and a variety of social outreach to achieve the best results for both society at large and the individuals involved.

Believe in reform and redemption, and apply it to everyone and everything.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#93

Post by mulmen »

kepler1 wrote: post #89
kelnos wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would rather see 10 guilty people flee before their trial and escape justice, than see one innocent person get stuck in jail pre-trial because they couldn't cough up the cash for a bail bond, causing them to lose their job and ruin their life. Means testing flat-out doesn't work. There are plenty of people who get caught in the system who can afford exactly zero dollars for bail, and I find it damn near impossible…

...I would rather see 10 guilty people flee before their trial and escape justice, than see one innocent person get stuck in jail pre-trial because they couldn't cough up the cash for a bail bond, causing them to lose their job and ruin their life. This is why poor black neighborhoods are crime ridden and victimized. You would have the law abiding citizen of these poor areas subject to 10 criminals roaming the street…

> This is why poor black neighborhoods are crime ridden and victimized.

Are you claiming this is unique to black neighborhoods? Why would there be a racial component to this issue at all?

> Your own efforts to believe in racial justice by any means undermine the outcome itself.

You appear to be the first person in this thread to invoke race.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#94

Post by kepler1 »

mulmen wrote: post #93
kepler1 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...I would rather see 10 guilty people flee before their trial and escape justice, than see one innocent person get stuck in jail pre-trial because they couldn't cough up the cash for a bail bond, causing them to lose their job and ruin their life. This is why poor black neighborhoods are crime ridden and victimized. You would have the law abiding citizen of these poor areas subject to 10 criminals roaming the street…

> This is why poor black neighborhoods are crime ridden and victimized. Are you claiming this is unique to black neighborhoods? Why would there be a racial component to this issue at all? > Your own efforts to believe in racial justice by any means undermine the outcome itself. You appear to be the first person in this thread to invoke race.

If you don't see that this problem is particularly unfair and concentrated in poor black neighborhoods, you are truly allowing your idealism blind you to reality.

For some reason maybe you don't want to talk about race, despite I'm sure being an advocate for Black Lives Matter.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#95

Post by tyrust »

menage wrote: post #77
tyrust wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like you have linked a paper proposing an improvement to SB10 that is unrelated to Prop 25, was this intentional?

After SB10 was passed by the legislature, the opposition (mostly bail bond companies?) gathered enough signatures to force a "veto referendum", i.e. a referendum on whether SB10 should be adopted as the legislature had voted, or should be dropped. That referendum is Prop 25. Edit: Parent is right, the link is to a different issue.

Yeah, what does that have to do with the paper the parent linked?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#96

Post by [deleted] »

kepler1 wrote: post #94
mulmen wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why poor black neighborhoods are crime ridden and victimized. Are you claiming this is unique to black neighborhoods? Why would there be a racial component to this issue at all? > Your own efforts to believe in racial justice by any means undermine the outcome itself. You appear to be the first person in this thread to invoke race.

If you don't see that this problem is particularly unfair and concentrated in poor black neighborhoods, you are truly allowing your idealism blind you to reality. For some reason maybe you don't want to talk about race, despite I'm sure being an advocate for Black Lives Matter.

[deleted]

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#97

Post by pySSK »

kepler1 wrote: post #76

You know, systems were established for a reason . It's not like the cash bail system was some ridiculous fanciful notion that someone created to torture the poor. We have arrested people pay cash bail so that we have some forcing function to ensure that they don't flee. And maybe a little bit to provide people the incentive not to commit crime in the first place. I don't know why, but that seems to be considered disc…

There are multiple strawpeople in your argument.

1. There are people from those actual communities asking and fighting for those things. You are assuming only suburban white advocates.

2. Cash-bail: "It's not like the cash bail system was some ridiculous fanciful notion that someone created to torture the poor." Who is saying that. The linked article is first and foremost concerned with the effect of cash-bail i.e. it affects poor people more negatively that it does rich people. It's broken system. Perhaps something like Finland's salary-based speeding ticket system would work well (but should incorporate wealth has many rich people don't have salaries).

3. Dismantle the police: the idea here is that armed police are now involved in situations where that is not required. Not only is it expensive and inefficient, but it has horrible outcomes. It's the old "if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail" problem. "They need more police presence and enforcement of law and order for their neighborhoods, not less." This has not been proven to work.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#98

Post by alkonaut »

bawolff wrote: post #51
rallison wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the downsides weren't so significant, then sure, the pro side makes sense. But the downsides are incredibly significant - that you have huge numbers of people who spend time in jail or spend money for a bail bond, who are indeed innocent, is a sign of a fundamentally broken system. > It should be relative to your ability to pay Sure, this would help, but I suspect it would still end up often unjustly impacting tho…

Fundamentally the idea of a surety doesn't work for the really poor. If you don't have anything to put up as collateral, you don't have anything to loose by skipping bail. The flip side of that, is if you are really poor you have less resources to use making your escape, so maybe the bail system is less needed. But just because the bail system doesn't work well for poor people doesn't mean its also broken for middle…

> you don't have anything to put up as collateral, you don't have anything to loose by skipping bail.

This right here is the problem. Addressing this would probably solve the bail issue too.

The question should perhaps be: is America ready to do what it takes to address poverty?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#99

Post by alkonaut »

creato wrote: post #17
ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

> regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Bail is in fact supposed to be a function of your financial status, and the severity of the crime. What do you suggest as an alternative to bail bonds? Maybe ankle monitors for those awaiting trial? I think maybe the thing that should most change is outlawing bail bondsmen. It seems like the…

> What do you suggest as an alternative to bail bonds?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but cash bails are pretty rare globally, and the normal way of going about this is: if you are dangerous/risk interfering with the investigation/a flight risk (Meaning not just "not show up" but actually leave the country, such as foreign citizens), then you await trial in jail. If you are not, then you don't.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#100

Post by pySSK »

specialist wrote: post #74

Someones, somewheres has done a better job of handling the accused pre-trial. Start there. Give me a name. Show me a role model to emulate. Then tell me how we get from here to there. But even better, just tell me what you want. Give me action steps, some talking points. Because you had me at "Hello." I really don't need a PhD thesis relitigating western philosophy since Plato. (Ditto each and every other progressive…

The article is quite clear in discussing the problem and solutions. When I don't understand a post about, let's say Rust, I acknowledge the gap in my knowledge instead of asking the software engineering community to dumb stuff down.
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