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Abolish the Cash Bail System

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Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#51

Post by bawolff »

rallison wrote: post #42
bawolff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

If the downsides weren't so significant, then sure, the pro side makes sense. But the downsides are incredibly significant - that you have huge numbers of people who spend time in jail or spend money for a bail bond, who are indeed innocent, is a sign of a fundamentally broken system. > It should be relative to your ability to pay Sure, this would help, but I suspect it would still end up often unjustly impacting tho…

Fundamentally the idea of a surety doesn't work for the really poor. If you don't have anything to put up as collateral, you don't have anything to loose by skipping bail.

The flip side of that, is if you are really poor you have less resources to use making your escape, so maybe the bail system is less needed.

But just because the bail system doesn't work well for poor people doesn't mean its also broken for middle class people.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#52

Post by ComputerGuru »

8note wrote: post #29
jennyyang wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conviction rate is very high, upwards of 85% in some states. So it's not like large swaths of completely innocent people are being held in jails. I'm okay with pre-trial incarceration as long as everyone gets treated equally. Since they aren't, I think non-cash bail is a good idea, with strict requirements to check in with an officer, etc. If they don't meet their appointments or break the terms of their bail, I'…

You're completely innocent until you've been proven guilty; before trial, the conviction rate is irrelevant to whether the person is innocent

> You're completely innocent until you've been proven guilty

Nitpick: you’re presumed innocent, which is very different from saying you’re actually introvert.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#53

Post by panic »

hevelvarik wrote: post #10

No. First figure out how to keep dangerous criminals off the street pre-trial. Then let’s talk. Cash bail is regressive and often unjust, I’m not willing to correct this injustice without a viable alternative to simply allowing dangerous people back onto the street hoping that they show up to trial and that they do not destroy while out. I believe our system has flaws that need correcting, but I do not advocate destr…

From the article:

> On the flip side, the cash bail system also tends to let high-risk or violent, but wealthy, offenders go free with little to no meaningful supervision. Research conducted by the Laura and John Arnold Foundation (JJAF) found that, in the two largest jurisdictions they studied, nearly half of the highest-risk defendants were released pending trial. On the other end of the spectrum, they found that “low-risk, non-violent defendants are frequently detained.” In other words, the cash bail system does an extremely poor job detaining defendants who pose a serious risk to public safety — particularly those who appear likely to commit crimes of violence — and to releasing those who do not.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#54

Post by ComputerGuru »

ars wrote: post #28
8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is fucking crazy. That sounds like a Blade-Runner-esque dystopia. And it’s our reality. From everything I read, it's rather scary to be poor in America, especially if you have to deal with the judicial or medical system.

> or medical system. Poor people get medicaid, which is actually pretty decent insurance since it's private (non government) insurance, paid for by the government. It's actually the middle class that has it hard: Too rich for medicaid, too poor to easily afford the deductibles. (I know this is an unpopular opinion, but things were better before Obamacare - deductibles were much much lower.)

Not just deductibles, my self-insured premiums have almost tripled since ACA.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#55

Post by ComputerGuru »

superflit wrote: post #36
8note wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many of the people in jail are dangerous though? Versus something like possession of marijuana And does the level of danger correlate to the criminal's wealth?

The "possession of marijuana" example is a straw man. People are incarcerated for "possession of marijuana" together with a lot of things. it is not only "possession of marijuana"

That rather depends on their socioeconomic status, and yes, the color of their skin.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#56

Post by tqi »

hevelvarik wrote: post #32
avs733 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just to summarize down, you are willing to sacrifice the freedom of an unknown other so that you feel you are safer?

Yes I will vote to keep the system as is because I believe it works generally. I’m willing to vote for progress but only without system breaking regression, sorry about that

"i believe it works generally"

Based on what? It doesn't seem like you are very informed on this issue. As numerous other people have pointed out any reforms would continue to allow for potentially dangerous people to be held pretrial.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#57

Post by PopeDotNinja »

bawolff wrote: post #25
ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

I don’t like imprisoning people because just they are poor.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#58

Post by nobody9999 »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #9
an_opabinia wrote: post #6

What is the alternative? Something worse? It’s on the ballot in California but it’s probably not what you want. ( https://www.theleaguesf.org/#Prop25 )

Here in Australia bail is determined based on the severity of the charges and the likelihood of you being guilty and / or a flight risk . Your wider point stands though: there's little reason to believe a replacement system instituted by the US Government would be better than the current one.

>Your wider point stands though: there's little reason to believe a replacement system instituted by the US Government would be better than the current one.

The US government doesn't set bail policy for the states or localities, only for defendants in federal courts[5].

In fact, such policies differ significantly from state to state[`0], county to county and even town to town.

Here's an example of the recently reformed bail system in New York[1], which differs significantly from its neighbor states New Jersey[2] and Connecticut[3]

A higher level view can be seen here[4].

[0] https://knowledgecenter.csg.org/kc/content/time-bail-cash-ba...

[1] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/new-...

[2] https://njcourts.gov/courts/criminal/reform.html

[3] https://www.jud.ct.gov/cssd/bail_faq.htm

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bail_in_the_United_States

[5] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3142

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#59

Post by harha »

rallison wrote: post #42
bawolff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

If the downsides weren't so significant, then sure, the pro side makes sense. But the downsides are incredibly significant - that you have huge numbers of people who spend time in jail or spend money for a bail bond, who are indeed innocent, is a sign of a fundamentally broken system. > It should be relative to your ability to pay Sure, this would help, but I suspect it would still end up often unjustly impacting tho…

You could reduce some of the downsides by reducing the amount required for bail by day and by adding limits for how long someone could be required to stay.

Also an automated system to calculate bail and maximum duration (as in not the judge deciding) might reduce some bias, so some categories of potential crimes don’t end up in jail while awaiting trial unless it’s a repeated offense.

Another approach could be to account for the pre trial days more favorably for the defendant: x days pre trial count for 2x days if convicted or need to get reimbursed at the higher of minimum rate or more than the loss of income. This approach would require a way to make sure judges don’t collude though.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#60

Post by [deleted] »

panic wrote: post #53
hevelvarik wrote: post #10

No. First figure out how to keep dangerous criminals off the street pre-trial. Then let’s talk. Cash bail is regressive and often unjust, I’m not willing to correct this injustice without a viable alternative to simply allowing dangerous people back onto the street hoping that they show up to trial and that they do not destroy while out. I believe our system has flaws that need correcting, but I do not advocate destr…

From the article: > On the flip side, the cash bail system also tends to let high-risk or violent, but wealthy, offenders go free with little to no meaningful supervision. Research conducted by the Laura and John Arnold Foundation (JJAF) found that, in the two largest jurisdictions they studied, nearly half of the highest-risk defendants were released pending trial. On the other end of the spectrum, they found that “…

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