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Abolish the Cash Bail System

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Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#41

Post by Polylactic_acid »

techsupporter wrote: post #20
hevelvarik wrote: post #10

No. First figure out how to keep dangerous criminals off the street pre-trial. Then let’s talk. Cash bail is regressive and often unjust, I’m not willing to correct this injustice without a viable alternative to simply allowing dangerous people back onto the street hoping that they show up to trial and that they do not destroy while out. I believe our system has flaws that need correcting, but I do not advocate destr…

> I believe our system has flaws that need correcting, but I do not advocate destroying the system to fix them. “It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.“ - Justice Blackstone I don’t understand why and how we got so far away from the idea that state punishment is the last resort, instead making it the first. Especially in the States, we do so many things that, even in the moment we…

Suffering is on a scale. Its better that a few innocent people sit around for a few days than one guilty person getting out and killing someone.

The risks should be evaluated and the result being keeping innocent people waiting for as little as possible while also preventing criminals from getting away.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#42

Post by rallison »

bawolff wrote: post #25
ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

If the downsides weren't so significant, then sure, the pro side makes sense.

But the downsides are incredibly significant - that you have huge numbers of people who spend time in jail or spend money for a bail bond, who are indeed innocent, is a sign of a fundamentally broken system.

> It should be relative to your ability to pay

Sure, this would help, but I suspect it would still end up often unjustly impacting those who are poorer and innocent.

If people don't show up for trial, charge them for that then.

But pre trial, while presumed innocent, aside from unique high flight risk scenarios? The bail system is terrible, and fundamentally unfair.

Edit: to be clear, making it relative to ability to pay, and eliminating commercial bail bondsmen would be a big step in the right direction. I still think that's rife with issues, but it would be significantly better than what we have now.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#43

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

jennyyang wrote: post #8
ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

The conviction rate is very high, upwards of 85% in some states. So it's not like large swaths of completely innocent people are being held in jails. I'm okay with pre-trial incarceration as long as everyone gets treated equally. Since they aren't, I think non-cash bail is a good idea, with strict requirements to check in with an officer, etc. If they don't meet their appointments or break the terms of their bail, I'…

The conviction rate is because people are forced to plea out to avoid the stacked overcharging done by prosecutors. You either take the 1-5, or go to trial and risk 20 to Life. The conviction rate at the state level is most certainly not something to be proud of because of the way it's obtained

>...However, there needs to be some provision to make sure that they don't stay in jail longer than what their offense would have garnered.

Well, in the US Constitution, they talk about a "speedy trial". But since this is the US, the US Constitution doesn't have too much weight. Failure to waive your right to a speedy trial can result in your public defender getting beat down by the judge.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/12/1...

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#44

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

creato wrote: post #14
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? It looks like your proposing someone pay someone else to do a particular role. What does that have to do with cash bail? I'm confused.

The point of bail is to put the defendant (or someone close to them) on the hook to pay the bail if the defendant doesn't show up in court. Bail bondsmen offer a different deal: pay us a fee (smaller than the bond), we'll pay your bail. If you don't show up to court, the bondsmen loses the bail bond unless they can go find the defendant and bring them into court. I think maybe the thing that should most change in thi…

But that doesn't fix anything. People still have to shell out for the bail, and recovery of the prisoner is left up to a private entity (but if they get picked up by a cop on a warrant they still get sent to jail). I'm not really sure there is a way to keep whatever "good" people may be seeing in the system without all the bad parts coming along with it.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#45

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

hevelvarik wrote: post #10

No. First figure out how to keep dangerous criminals off the street pre-trial. Then let’s talk. Cash bail is regressive and often unjust, I’m not willing to correct this injustice without a viable alternative to simply allowing dangerous people back onto the street hoping that they show up to trial and that they do not destroy while out. I believe our system has flaws that need correcting, but I do not advocate destr…

You do know that people can be held without bail/bond right? It's not the dichotomy that you are making it out to be.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#46

Post by hugh-avherald »

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

It cuts both ways though. The surety's financial resources are taken into account by the bail decision maker. If the accused does not have sufficient means, other conditions may be imposed. But if no other conditions are available, the bail decision maker may be obliged to refuse bail.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#47

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

hevelvarik wrote: post #32
avs733 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just to summarize down, you are willing to sacrifice the freedom of an unknown other so that you feel you are safer?

Yes I will vote to keep the system as is because I believe it works generally. I’m willing to vote for progress but only without system breaking regression, sorry about that

Well, using your words, you are willing to prevent progress and preferring to maintain that the state continuing carrying out what you called "an injustice". Slightly stronger wording on your part. In addition, there are already solutions to the problem that you cite as the reason this injustice should be maintained i.e serial killers don't get bail/bond.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#48

Post by nobody9999 »

nmfisher wrote: post #39
Retric wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting people out on their own recognizance works in most cases. The rare exception of a serious flight risk simply doesn’t get bail anyway.

> Putting people out on their own recognizance works in most cases. Has this been studied?

>> Putting people out on their own recognizance works in most cases.

>Has this been studied?

Actually, it has. In fact, the linked essay goes into some significant detail about it.

Perhaps you might consider reading it.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#50

Post by mmmBacon »

jennyyang wrote: post #8
ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

The conviction rate is very high, upwards of 85% in some states. So it's not like large swaths of completely innocent people are being held in jails. I'm okay with pre-trial incarceration as long as everyone gets treated equally. Since they aren't, I think non-cash bail is a good idea, with strict requirements to check in with an officer, etc. If they don't meet their appointments or break the terms of their bail, I'…

The US system is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. We should not be ok with denying a person’s freedom while they are presumed innocent. Additionally the conviction rate has nothing to do with actual guilt. Many people plea to get it over with.

I did this myself in the early 90s shortly after turning 18. I was charged with class 3 misdemeanor disorderly conduct for skateboarding. My lawyer thought we could beat it but I was poor and starting college hundreds of miles away. I was afraid of the disruption to my studies plus the costs of going to trial. It was easier to plea to a lesser charge (summary offense, like a traffic ticket) and move on.

This scenario plays out for many people and has little to do with actual guilt.

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