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Abolish the Cash Bail System

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Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#21

Post by avs733 »

hevelvarik wrote: post #10

No. First figure out how to keep dangerous criminals off the street pre-trial. Then let’s talk. Cash bail is regressive and often unjust, I’m not willing to correct this injustice without a viable alternative to simply allowing dangerous people back onto the street hoping that they show up to trial and that they do not destroy while out. I believe our system has flaws that need correcting, but I do not advocate destr…

So just to summarize down, you are willing to sacrifice the freedom of an unknown other so that you feel you are safer?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#22

Post by tom-_- »

California Prop 25 on the ballot this election replaces cash bails with a risk assessment scoring system based on Senate Bill 10:

https://policylab.stanford.edu/media/improving-california-ba...

Note the flaws in its design that could replace the existing system with one that has potentially worse biases.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#23

Post by [deleted] »

hevelvarik wrote: post #10

No. First figure out how to keep dangerous criminals off the street pre-trial. Then let’s talk. Cash bail is regressive and often unjust, I’m not willing to correct this injustice without a viable alternative to simply allowing dangerous people back onto the street hoping that they show up to trial and that they do not destroy while out. I believe our system has flaws that need correcting, but I do not advocate destr…

[deleted]

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#25

Post by bawolff »

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle.

It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial.

It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system.

*as an interesting note, in Canada its illegal to be a commercial bondsmand - https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-139.ht... i think that helps make the bail system be much more sane.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#26

Post by Retric »

creato wrote: post #17
ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

> regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Bail is in fact supposed to be a function of your financial status, and the severity of the crime. What do you suggest as an alternative to bail bonds? Maybe ankle monitors for those awaiting trial? I think maybe the thing that should most change is outlawing bail bondsmen. It seems like the…

Putting people out on their own recognizance works in most cases. The rare exception of a serious flight risk simply doesn’t get bail anyway.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#27

Post by ars »

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

> your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status?

Isn't bail adjusted based on the persons financial status?

Unlike road fines and the like, it's one of the few things that do take into account a persons wealth.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#28

Post by ars »

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #5
ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

> That is fucking crazy. That sounds like a Blade-Runner-esque dystopia. And it’s our reality. From everything I read, it's rather scary to be poor in America, especially if you have to deal with the judicial or medical system.

> or medical system.

Poor people get medicaid, which is actually pretty decent insurance since it's private (non government) insurance, paid for by the government.

It's actually the middle class that has it hard: Too rich for medicaid, too poor to easily afford the deductibles.

(I know this is an unpopular opinion, but things were better before Obamacare - deductibles were much much lower.)

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#29

Post by 8note »

jennyyang wrote: post #8
ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

The conviction rate is very high, upwards of 85% in some states. So it's not like large swaths of completely innocent people are being held in jails. I'm okay with pre-trial incarceration as long as everyone gets treated equally. Since they aren't, I think non-cash bail is a good idea, with strict requirements to check in with an officer, etc. If they don't meet their appointments or break the terms of their bail, I'…

You're completely innocent until you've been proven guilty; before trial, the conviction rate is irrelevant to whether the person is innocent

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#30

Post by 8note »

hevelvarik wrote: post #10

No. First figure out how to keep dangerous criminals off the street pre-trial. Then let’s talk. Cash bail is regressive and often unjust, I’m not willing to correct this injustice without a viable alternative to simply allowing dangerous people back onto the street hoping that they show up to trial and that they do not destroy while out. I believe our system has flaws that need correcting, but I do not advocate destr…

How many of the people in jail are dangerous though? Versus something like possession of marijuana

And does the level of danger correlate to the criminal's wealth?

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