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Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

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Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#91
OP here. Given that I posted this, I think I that I should share my opinion. I am Spanish and against Catalonian independence, so hopelesly biased, I fear. I want to keep this short and cut to what I believe is the essence of the problem and how I think that all this will play out.

Given the power assymetry, hugely favourable to Spain, the only chance for Catalonian independence is to get external support that will twist Spain's arm. Here is where they are concentrating their efforts. They are trying this on many fronts, some legal (EU court in Strasbourg), but mostly by trying to keep the conflict in the front page of international media. This has worked partially (by damaging Spain's image abroad), but are still very far from their goals (UN resolution against Spain, EU warning, a big state or leader putting this on their agenda). Part of this is to commit illegal but not quite criminal acts, followed by an outcry and demonstrations when they invariably get banned by Spain. This "digital republic" is just one of many such acts. Spain is actually reacting with enormous restraint, given the propaganda disaster of past mistakes like the riot police during the illegal referendum.

Unless forced by the international community, Spain will never allow Catalonian independence, no matter how bad the internal situation, in my opinion. This is a matter of national interest for Spain, an existential threat, because it is one of the largest and richest regions, and because others would follow (at least the Basques), and Spain would just cease to exist.

Democracy is crucial, but, as with all complex problems, there are trade-offs to be made, one can't aim for absolute democracy at the expense of everything else, we should be careful with absolutes because they are not realistic. This is not a matter of human rights, or Spain being a fascist state, franquist, or a dictatorship. Spain has never been accused by other EU countries of being undemocratic or not respecting human rights (or, at least, not worse than other nations like France or USA).

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#92
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reply shows your manipulative and dishonest nature. There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution. - They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth - They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen. - They do not accept the authority of the gov…

And your reply shows how selfish you are. As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration. Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.

I don't know that it's obvious that the people outside of Catalonia should have a say in Catalonia's secession (which would mean it wouldn't matter what the majority of Spain wants, just the majority of Catalans)

Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned that 90% the vote in Catalonia was 90% for secession, and included half the population. It seems unlikely to me that of the half that didn't vote, more than 90% are anti-secession.

Keep in mind, I don't live anywhere near the area, so I can't get a gut feeling that someone from there might be able to get.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#93
post #35
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which strikes me as odd, because I recall there is a European law that says that personal data of European citizens must remain within the EU.

Check with a lawyer for details, but the best way to describe it is the EU can do little about data once it is outside of the EU: their laws don't apply elsewhere. They have ways around this. If you have a EU presence (ie an office) that presence gets into trouble if data is sent outside the EU without a lot of care - this includes care to ensure the foreign government of where you send the data won't get it (which m…

> None of the above applies to this case though because presumably it is the person in question sending his own data outside the EU. There isn't much they can do about that.

Not at all. The problem here is that the Catalan government took advantage of their power position and used official data to fill the database of this "digital republic". This is precisely what this law disallows. They can still hold servers where citizens enter their own data.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#94

Tsunami Democratic is being investigated by Spanish authorities for promoting public disorders and criminal activities. So Spain is making what is need to to prevent criminal activities and (further) public disorders in Catalonia. I don't know how some Catalonian citizens are letting themselves be influenced by some corrupt politicians trying to enrich theirselves and avoid prison. Check out democracy index in Spain…

Better stick to the facts rather than partisan polemics and distortion. They made Github take down an app for spreading information on and organizing demonstrations . These demonstrations have been by and large peaceful. Like it or not, freedom of speech and assembly are fundamental and human rights under the international commitments (ECHR, EU Fundamental Rights Charter etc.) Spain has entered into. What this looks…

> Like it or not, freedom of speech and assembly

Completely agree, but the investigation goes toward how this group is using this assemblies to promote disorders, chaos and unlawful activities.

Each of the manifestation in Catalonia and in Madrid have been approved and we have been able to see hundred of people fighting for their beliefs.

We will agree that promoting criminal activities doesn't help Catalonian cause, and that should be investigated.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#95
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, I think we already are in a point of no-return. Not necessarily to the independence though, but who knows...

What's the alternative to independence if they cannot return to the status quo?

I think a new Constitution is the only solution. It could be possible to reform the Spanish State to make it federal or confederal and hopefully this would be accepted by all the political forces involved. However, this new Constitution would have to be voted by all of Spanish citizens in a referendum, not only the Catalans.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#96
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just Spain not EU. It's the typical second biggest city not having internal relevance compared to the capital even though it's as good, together with the common claim of everything happens in the capital, decisions are there, most money stays there, etc. Also, it's slightly different culture, language, etc. And around WW2 time, there was an actual civil war. Discontent keeps happening, catalonian patriots gets in pow…

Ok the catalans may be arrogant, but did something significantly change in recent years? Usually these bravado-led movements are a result of stagnant economy like in Italy.

Politicians have been leveraging this for years, using this division to their benefits. And these applies both to catalonian politicians using independence and blaming everything in Madrid, and national parties in Madrid demonizing Catalonia.

They've been making a huge snowball of this, and it's starting to be too much.

From talking to some catalonian people, I think the last economic crisis, its management, and the corruption scandals in Partido Popular (the party that govered Spain from 2011 to 2018, but is always extremely irrelevant in Catalonia) had a lot to do with it, as it was easy for many to blame those on Madrid, on Spain, or "on the Castilians".

(I'm from Castilla but around half of my family emigrated to Barcelona a generation ago. I don't hate any catalonian who wants independence, they have that right; I'm sick of how both sides use FUD and hatred.)

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#97
post #4

Slightly off topic, but is there a good, short summary of why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain? I would think this would enhance the standing of the EU as it weakens the power of one of its larger members. Heck, wouldn’t it be in the interest of nefarious EU types to have countries like Spain, Italy, Germany, and France and their regions/states/departments become member States or autonomous regions within the E…

Here's an explanation of the reasons. http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/background/why-a-vote/

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#98
post #4

Slightly off topic, but is there a good, short summary of why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain? I would think this would enhance the standing of the EU as it weakens the power of one of its larger members. Heck, wouldn’t it be in the interest of nefarious EU types to have countries like Spain, Italy, Germany, and France and their regions/states/departments become member States or autonomous regions within the E…

Here's an explanation of the reasons. http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/background/why-a-vote/

An explanation from one of the sides. There are many things in that text that could be discussed. For example, the "attacks against the education system and linguistic rights". I dare you to explain that in detail.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#99

Separatist movements in Spain are dangerous for the entirety of Europe. The world is much less stable nowadays and the last thing you'd want is an armed civil-war like conflict in the heart of Europe. But i'm a Turk that grew up watching news of my fellow citizens killed by separatists on the TV so maybe i'm a little bit more sensitive to this issue.

You are not wrong. In fact, there're some suspicious that third countries support independence movements directly or indirectly. If you think about it, nowadays it's far easier to break a country from inside than starting a war.

Balkanization isn't helping anyone, won't help Spain or Catalonians either. The problem relies within our changing political identity. It used to be religion based for so long, which was splintering alright but still was more unifying than nationalism. Now people of any ethnic identity demands a land for it and third parties sponsor them for their own interests. How reasonable is that? It just causes more geopolitical chaos and resource bottlenecks. EU and the USA isn't faring too well with multiculturalism either so our civilization is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running away from restrained bulls is not the same as torturing and killing a bull for show.

Did you look for images? They torture the bulls by attaching burning items to their horns. Running away is the least significant part. It's a very cruel activity that end up with a lot of dead bulls. BTW, I also hate bull fighting.

Apart from the animal abuse issue (which is also what I care most about), it's also a cultural issue. If Catalans consider bull running to be Catalan heritage, but not bull fighting, they might allow the former and ban the latter. But Spain considers both Spanish cultural heritage, so wants both to be allowed anywhere in Spain.
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