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Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

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Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#891

Post by leereeves »

scarface74 wrote: post #888
leereeves wrote: post #886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said there's a vocal segment of the population that is hostile to white men, not systematic discrimination. This segment includes people at powerful institutions, and they're actively seeking more power. If they take power then you'll see systematic discrimination against white men in employment. Right now, other groups experience discrimination more often, but that doesn't make discrimination against white people…

There is also a vocal segment of racists, homophobes, sexists and people who want to impose their religious beliefs on America that mostly lean Republican. But no one here is arguing about policy changes based on that.

Just to clarify: are you arguing that sexism against men and racism against whites is OK because these other people exist?

If not, what you just said is pure whataboutism.

It's also incorrect. People on this very page are arguing that conservative speech shouldn't be protected because of the existence of those extremists.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#892

Post by [deleted] »

scarface74 wrote: post #885
leereeves wrote: post #882

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, I exaggerate a bit when I say "nobody" cares; I mean: Do these questions come up in Presidential campaigns? Are they debated in Congress? Is there any funding to address these issues? Are there massive organized protests calling for change? The wage gap is smaller than the education gap, and in that case the answer to all these questions is "Yes". There are some people working to bring attention to these issues…

White males hold most positions in power in both government, industry, and religion - I'm not making a value judgement, just stating facts - the three most influential parts of society. Who are these powerful forces that are keeping them from rising up?

[deleted]

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#893

Post by [deleted] »

scarface74 wrote: post #885
leereeves wrote: post #882

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, I exaggerate a bit when I say "nobody" cares; I mean: Do these questions come up in Presidential campaigns? Are they debated in Congress? Is there any funding to address these issues? Are there massive organized protests calling for change? The wage gap is smaller than the education gap, and in that case the answer to all these questions is "Yes". There are some people working to bring attention to these issues…

White males hold most positions in power in both government, industry, and religion - I'm not making a value judgement, just stating facts - the three most influential parts of society. Who are these powerful forces that are keeping them from rising up?

[deleted]

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#894

Post by otterley »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #864
andrewjl wrote: post #860

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SF is already notoriously family unfriendly. The side effects you're describing sound like they'd impact suburban areas more so than the city. SF needs an overhauled planning process and possibly a way to fast track review of housing in already over priced areas that can contribute to a reduction in median rent. Edit: what is also clear is that the longer we delay these changes the more A) folks will get displaced th…

I have actually studied some stuff relevant to this problem space. I am trying to figure out how to put useful info together and I am getting involved locally where I live, which is outside California. I don't know if that I am doing will go anywhere and I don't currently have firm suggestions for SF. But it is quite hard to find genuinely viable solutions that don't have seriously undesirable side effects. I think d…

What are the "undesirable side effects" to which you refer?

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#895

Post by dcow »

wpietri wrote: post #776
dcow wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I still think this term is ridiculous I'm trying to think of a better term. The point is the concept. And in my defense the Wikipedia definition aligns with my usage of the term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching . > The only example I can think of where someone lost their job due to a donation was Brendan Eich Yeah that was just an example. Another similar scenario I can think of off the top of my head: the p…

The Wikipedia bit is uncited and does not agree with any of the first 5 dictionaries I looked at. And it's definitely now how it's used in the US. E.g., the book I pointed you to is not about extrajudicial parking tickets or something. It's about violent racist murder. Your telling of the Missouri thing is highly suspect. He openly admits he made a series of mistakes in handling racism on campus and related student a…

Words mean exactly what they're intended to mean. Nothing more. I clearly don't mean violent extrajudicial murder so telling me that's a bad term because it has been used in the US to describe incidents of violent extrajudicial racist murder is exactly the type of thought policing that makes zero logical sense especially in a global forum. There's an argument for avoiding such a term out of respect/sensitivity for people personally affected by some piece of language in order to prevent triggering emotional responses, but that's not the argument you're making. And I'm sorry if that is how the term affected you.

> “Wolfe verbally acknowledged that he cared for Black students at the University of Missouri, however he also reported he was ‘not completely’ aware of systemic racism, sexism, and patriarchy on campus,” a statement from the group read.

After which Wolfe appologized but people wouldn't have it. It's the mob mentality that I don't like. Once he said that there was nothing he could do to save his job even though he met most all of the demands laid before him. At that point it became about making a statement not about humans learning to tolerate each other. It's intolerance at its finest. All the politicians asking for his removal were just being political..

CEO of Papa John's is another example. And this all started with chick-fil-a's COO.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#896

Post by dcow »

wpietri wrote: post #777
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about simply "fired" or maybe for cases that go beyond being excluded from a single job "blacklisted". Those examples are all very hyperbolic, albeit less so than "lynched".

Yeah, I think direct description of the actual events is the way to go. Especially when so often the actual event is something like, "felt uncomfortable after receiving public criticism".

Enough with the snark. I am actually trying to listen to recommendations for better terms and you're deliberately not helping which is really making it hard for me to extend empathy here. (HN is generally a place for constructive intellectual commentary not petty frustrated juvenile crap.) I am not talking about people simply feeling uncomfortable. That should be abundantly clear by now.

Or, we can chalk this one up to you misinterpreting the scope of events to which my initial comment refers...

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#897

Post by scarface74 »

leereeves wrote: post #891
scarface74 wrote: post #888

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a vocal segment of racists, homophobes, sexists and people who want to impose their religious beliefs on America that mostly lean Republican. But no one here is arguing about policy changes based on that.

Just to clarify: are you arguing that sexism against men and racism against whites is OK because these other people exist? If not, what you just said is pure whataboutism. It's also incorrect. People on this very page are arguing that conservative speech shouldn't be protected because of the existence of those extremists.

I'm not saying it's "okay". All speech should be protected from the government banning it. If conservatives don't like the policies on Internet forums, they are welcome to start their own.

If you can find studies showing - that controlling for all other variables - that white males are being discriminated against and that it is caused by discrimination, I'm all eyes.

Just like I said about the wage gap between men and women. Most of the studies I've seen reported even by places with a more liberal bent is that the wage gap can in large part be attributed to women choosing less demanding careers that allow them to spend more time taking care of kids. It's not being caused by disctimination.

Can you show from studies that the outcomes you described are being caused by discrimination?

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#898

Post by andrewjl »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #864
andrewjl wrote: post #860

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SF is already notoriously family unfriendly. The side effects you're describing sound like they'd impact suburban areas more so than the city. SF needs an overhauled planning process and possibly a way to fast track review of housing in already over priced areas that can contribute to a reduction in median rent. Edit: what is also clear is that the longer we delay these changes the more A) folks will get displaced th…

I have actually studied some stuff relevant to this problem space. I am trying to figure out how to put useful info together and I am getting involved locally where I live, which is outside California. I don't know if that I am doing will go anywhere and I don't currently have firm suggestions for SF. But it is quite hard to find genuinely viable solutions that don't have seriously undesirable side effects. I think d…

Folks are getting involved in the community planning meetings, which are a major way here for potential developments to get more visibility.

In SF this week there's a case of a man who owns a laundromat, and would like to turn it into a 75 unit apartment building. It sounds like he met all the objective criteria and is getting stonewalled by NIMBY's due to the usual excuses: "neighborhood character" and historical value of the building. The building is a laundromat, and by all appearances fairly mundane and not at all historical. I can think of no obvious opposition a reasonable urban planner would have to this development. Yet it's being stonewalled. What undesirable side effects would it have? I grew up in New York City, which is also dense. People love living there. What's wrong with SF moving in that direction if it means accommodating all the new residents AND providing reasonably priced housing to all the current ones. Pardon the rant, this issue hits close to home for me.

Edit: Re your earlier point on SF geography, earthquake proofing is a well developed tech. It will add some cost to development, but that doesn't make it infeasible. I live in a part of the city where they had to drill many many feet down to bedrock. It can be done.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#899

Post by DoreenMichele »

andrewjl wrote: post #898
DoreenMichele wrote: post #864

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have actually studied some stuff relevant to this problem space. I am trying to figure out how to put useful info together and I am getting involved locally where I live, which is outside California. I don't know if that I am doing will go anywhere and I don't currently have firm suggestions for SF. But it is quite hard to find genuinely viable solutions that don't have seriously undesirable side effects. I think d…

Folks are getting involved in the community planning meetings, which are a major way here for potential developments to get more visibility. In SF this week there's a case of a man who owns a laundromat, and would like to turn it into a 75 unit apartment building. It sounds like he met all the objective criteria and is getting stonewalled by NIMBY's due to the usual excuses: "neighborhood character" and historical va…

I am not familiar with the specific case you are talking about. But one of the reasons we have this mess is due to historical efforts to improve things that resulted in the elimination of a lot of affordable housing. I have seen lots of examples of zoning gone wrong and stated goals being achieved, but with unexpected costs.

I don't remember it as clearly as I once did, but the Aswan Dam met all its stated goals of providing electricity and controlling flooding. But it cost vastly more to build than expected, silt build up was much faster than expected, leading to a shorter lifespan than expected, it caused a terrible schistosomiasis epidemic and farmers had to spend huge quantities on fertilizer. They overlooked the fact that the icky flooding provided free fertilizer in the form of rich silt. They overlooked the fact that the icky flooding is why Egypt was The Jewel of the Nile for thousands of years. They didn't recognize that the icky flooding also kept the snail population under control. The snails are the vector for schistosomiasis, a horrifying parasitic infection.

Lots of efforts to fix things go sideways. It happens all the time.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#900

Post by andrewjl »

freyir wrote: post #887
andrewjl wrote: post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use of liberal / conservative in this context is muddled at best and misleading at worst.

It’s not muddled, it’s used according to the definition of the word. And in truth, SF’s housing policy does fall in line with typical conservative values. It protects the interests of the establishment, in this case those who are either long-term property owners or wealthy enough to buy their way in a high premium.

Liberal / conservative are usually used as shorthand for specific political philosophies.

Many mainstream American conservatives refer to themselves as classical liberals, and they are correct. Liberal, in the American parlance, on the other hand covers a wider gamut, from centrists who favor technocratic regulatory regimes and government nonintervention in personal affairs all the way to progressives who favor income redistribution and widespread social engineering policies. (Clinton and Sanders camps in the Democratic party respectively.) There's also an emerging hard-right anti-immigration / "nationalist" fringe. I take no issue with your points but object to the terminology which masks the complexity of the situation at hand.

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