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Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

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Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#861

Post by Veelox »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #756
thanatropism wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I'm too young to see how gay marriage is even controversial, but where's the frontier between bigotry and discrepant values? Is being anti-abortion bigotry & hate?

For gay marriage, the part that made being against it bigotry is the part where you are denying other people fundamental rights, and all of the ancillary rights that go with that. You are, in essence, creating second class citizens. And for something that literally had zero effect whatsoever on those that were against it.

There are people who genuinely disagree with you and believe that same-sex marriage is not a fundamental right but a separate additional right requested by the LGBT community.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#862

Post by Veelox »

salvar wrote: post #713
peoplewindow wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh. As the sibling comment points out, what you are saying is not true . It is contradicted by the text of the memo itself. Moreover he wasn't "very vocal about it", he wrote a memo that was then deliberately leaked by his ideological opponents in order to destroy his career: successfully so. Five years ago I felt my political views were pretty mainstream for the tech industry, for the Valley (although I did not li…

I keep seeing this argument, and wonder if we read the same memo. And to mirror your view, I'm getting pretty tired of people just brushing off criticism of the memo as "Strawman! Fake news!" when it's anything but. I guess it's a successful tactic though.

I think part of the problem with the memo is that it was written for an audience that was unbiased, not for a hostile audience. This means that when you read it after here how bad it was, you brain is primed to pick up on the phrases that are directly or indirectly offensive to women and you skip over all the qualifiers. If you pretty much agree with the basic premise you miss the offensive stuff and notice all of the qualifiers.

It reminds me of all of the issues in the Ferguson shooting. Instantly we had "Hands up, Don't shoot" and "Criminal" being called by both sides. The stuff that is divisive goes viral and people on both sides shout about it.

Alas, because it was imperfectly said by Damore, it is no longer safe to openly discuss if the gender gap in tech might be influenced by biology.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#863

Post by bmm6o »

bmm6o wrote: post #853
leereeves wrote: post #792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a shame you don't have any free time. If you did, I'd recommend searching for "the future is female" and seeing how deep the rabbit hole goes. But since you don't, what exactly do you expect me to say here that will convince you in 30 seconds?

The Atlantic article was quite long and I read it in a good-faith effort to follow up on your citations, so you can drop the condescension. Elsewhere you concede that it's not the celebratory article you promised, so at least we agree about that.

And as for "how deep the rabbit hole goes", well, I'm shocked - shocked! - that it's possible to find extreme views online.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#864

Post by DoreenMichele »

andrewjl wrote: post #860
DoreenMichele wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, it isn't actually that simple. Since WW2, the vast majority of our financing mechanisms and housing policy has been aimed at creating family housing because that was what the parents of the Baby Boomers wanted and needed. Meanwhile, our population has diversified away from that. Plus there are myriad zoning policies, tax policies etc at all levels of government that are pieces of the puzzle for how SF…

SF is already notoriously family unfriendly. The side effects you're describing sound like they'd impact suburban areas more so than the city. SF needs an overhauled planning process and possibly a way to fast track review of housing in already over priced areas that can contribute to a reduction in median rent. Edit: what is also clear is that the longer we delay these changes the more A) folks will get displaced th…

I have actually studied some stuff relevant to this problem space. I am trying to figure out how to put useful info together and I am getting involved locally where I live, which is outside California.

I don't know if that I am doing will go anywhere and I don't currently have firm suggestions for SF. But it is quite hard to find genuinely viable solutions that don't have seriously undesirable side effects.

I think discussing it on HN can have a constructive purpose, but it isn't guaranteed to have one. I wish I knew how to more seriously engage people trying to come up with real solutions.

My mother always said it is easy to criticize, it is hard to create. If you have any thoughts on how I can more effectively connect, I would love to hear them. You could also try connecting with me on Reddit where I created a space called Housing Works.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#865

Post by ameister14 »

kelukelugames wrote: post #852
ameister14 wrote: post #845

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of mine are from conversations with people, but this is what I immediately thought of (though I know the definition has changed a little since) https://books.google.com/books?id=QelNAQAAQBAJ Here's another: https://practicaltheorist.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/the-myth-... Here's a critique stating that the terms aren't defined enough to be said to be 'just' http://assets.press.princeton.edu/chapters/s6818.pdf The…

The wordpress article says academic meritocracy doesn't exist because teachers are biased. The author is calling it a myth to say it exists in our society. Doesn't seem like they are against an actual meritocracy. Though I suppose it's easier to dismiss complaints about bias when we pretend those complainers just hate our meritocracy.

The author is saying that a meritocracy is a dystopian nightmare. Literally, he coined the term meritocracy to describe his dystopian nightmare civilization.

I'm not sure how to parse your last sentence. Could you clarify what you mean?

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#866

Post by leereeves »

scarface74 wrote: post #858
leereeves wrote: post #855

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men are only about 40% of college students. Male unemployment is higher. I have no data on the others.

That’s not what I asked. Can you find studies where equally qualified white men were denied opportunities, controlling for all other variables suffered harm because of their color or gender? I can post studies where the opposite has happened in housing, hiring, and the criminal justice system.

Who would do or fund such a study?

Women outnumber men in college by 50%, and almost nobody sees a problem with that. Men vastly outnumber women among the homeless, prisoners, accidental deaths, etc, and nobody cares about that either.

Nobody in power cares enough about less fortunate men to support any studies that might show what obstacles they face.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#867

Post by leereeves »

scarface74 wrote: post #857
leereeves wrote: post #854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bringing jobs back to America does seem reasonable, right? But as far as I've seen, very few leaders in academia, business, government, or the media have spoken against globalization. Of course, I might be wrong, so please feel free to show me the many leaders who've opposed globalization and the receptive responses of the institutions they work for.

There is a difference between “speaking against globalizarion” and increasing jobs in America. How do you propose we decrease globalization? Impose tariffs, cause a trade war, and increase prices for everyone? There is a company called Softwear trying to brIng clothe manufacturing back to the US. But they plan to automate everything and hire a very few engineers. How does that help the “working class”? The ship on gl…

"RNC Republicans" still believe in globalization. Republican voters have been opposed to globalization for a long time but until Trump they had few voting choices that reflected that.

And the ship hasn't sailed on globalization. China is bringing protectionism back whatever we do.

Will protectionism raise prices? On manufactured goods, perhaps. But manufactured goods are a small portion of our expenses compared to rents, food, and energy, and if protectionism also raises wages it will mean more Americans can afford to live well.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#868

Post by JoeAltmaier »

leereeves wrote: post #866
scarface74 wrote: post #858

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not what I asked. Can you find studies where equally qualified white men were denied opportunities, controlling for all other variables suffered harm because of their color or gender? I can post studies where the opposite has happened in housing, hiring, and the criminal justice system.

Who would do or fund such a study? Women outnumber men in college by 50%, and almost nobody sees a problem with that. Men vastly outnumber women among the homeless, prisoners, accidental deaths, etc, and nobody cares about that either. Nobody in power cares enough about less fortunate men to support any studies that might show what obstacles they face.

I see it around a fraction of 1%?

http://time.com/4064665/women-college-degree/

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#869

Post by leereeves »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #868
leereeves wrote: post #866

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would do or fund such a study? Women outnumber men in college by 50%, and almost nobody sees a problem with that. Men vastly outnumber women among the homeless, prisoners, accidental deaths, etc, and nobody cares about that either. Nobody in power cares enough about less fortunate men to support any studies that might show what obstacles they face.

I see it around a fraction of 1%? http://time.com/4064665/women-college-degree/

That's because of the Baby Boomers. Among people in college now, nearly 60% of students/graduates are women.

If nothing is done to increase male enrollment, the statistic you quoted (% of population with college degrees) will change to match this inequality fairly quickly.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#870

Post by AnimalMuppet »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #641
otterley wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s very easy to contemplate how to solve this problem: make it easy to build extremely dense housing in SF. The problem is that the powers that be don’t want to make it easier, and they all have ultimately self serving excuses as to why. Every time a politician tells me more housing won’t make it cheaper, I posit the hypothetical “what if we built 100,000 more units? No? How about 1 million more? 5 million more?” T…

Unfortunately, it isn't actually that simple. Since WW2, the vast majority of our financing mechanisms and housing policy has been aimed at creating family housing because that was what the parents of the Baby Boomers wanted and needed. Meanwhile, our population has diversified away from that. Plus there are myriad zoning policies, tax policies etc at all levels of government that are pieces of the puzzle for how SF…

> I can't give you a point by pint list if instructions on how to fix it for SF.

I'm sure that was a typo, but a "point by pint" list (or discussion, either one) sounds pretty fun...

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