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GitHub to lay off 10% and close all offices

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Re: GitHub to lay off 10% and close all offices

#831

Post by louwrentius »

orangecat wrote: post #575
louwrentius wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's survivor bias: for you there are thousands who didn't make it for one reason or another and it seems that those are just to get fucked. 65%+ Americans don't have 500 bucks to their name. They are one car breakdown from deep shit. They call it the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin

65%+ Americans don't have 500 bucks to their name. They are one car breakdown from deep shit. This is of course not true.

Narator: it is true

https://www.cbs19news.com/story/34248451/6-in-10-americans-d...

Re: GitHub to lay off 10% and close all offices

#832

Post by bart_spoon »

oblio wrote: post #581
jjeaff wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, just do some socializing outside of work.

People keep saying that. Humans don't work like that. Almost all meaningful relations are based on prolonged proximity.

Yes, and the point is that if you or your coworker is laid off or take a new job, that proximity is immediately nullified and the relationship typically withers and dies.

Spend less time socializing at work, and more time creating that prolonged proximity outside of work, so that relationships of your choosing can be formed that are less subject to the whims of your bosses and the economy.

Re: GitHub to lay off 10% and close all offices

#833

Post by louwrentius »

andrew_ wrote: post #637
louwrentius wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's survivor bias: for you there are thousands who didn't make it for one reason or another and it seems that those are just to get fucked. 65%+ Americans don't have 500 bucks to their name. They are one car breakdown from deep shit. They call it the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin

I'd hardly call a 30 year professional career in various fields and collars as "survivor bias." The network of people I've been exposed to over that period of time alone puts a hole in that argument. Tossing out that term to try and justify a terribly flawed argument is as silly as the unsubstantiated statistic provided as emotional evidence.

N=1 anekdote doesn’t count. Personal experience doesn’t count large population stats count and it’s not looking good for large swats of people.

But I have it good so the system works! Yea sure, it’s really anout you. The selfishness, the lack of care for others is so ingrained.

If the majority of your country is dirt poor and has to work multiple jobs the system clearly doesn’t work.

Re: GitHub to lay off 10% and close all offices

#834

Post by 999900000999 »

mnd999 wrote: post #522

Remote only is short sighted. It might work okay for your experienced workforce, but for junior hires, especially new graduates, they get a lot from working alongside more experienced people. And when you’re young you want to go for drinks after work and socialise with colleagues. If you can’t keep the junior employees then your company has no future.

>And when you’re young you want to go for drinks after work and socialise with colleagues.

And risk getting fired when you say something stupid. And force those with anxiety issues into forced socialization.

What if you're disabled and have mobility issues ? Getting to an office everyday doesn't sound too fun.

Re: GitHub to lay off 10% and close all offices

#835

Post by frognumber »

dcchambers wrote: post #215
softwaredoug wrote: post #201

I really liked Shopify's remote model of not closing offices, but turning them into "ports" for teams in major cities to get together throughout the year for planning, team building, and retreats. You had an official place to get together, enjoy the perks of tech company offices, but with the intention of deep short bursts of interaction rather than focused work.

We have done the same at Zendesk. We've reduced our office footprint but have kept our hubs open with large enough offices open for the occasional large on-site and for easier team collaborations, as well as space for anyone that prefers to work in an office environment. I like the model, but I question long term economic viability of owning that much office space with mostly low utilization and only occasional spike…

I suspect a pathway might be:

1) Open offices for collaboration

2) Shared offices for collaboration (like co-working spaces) with reservations, as well as off-site retreats to places like Hawaii. This is cheaper than leasing in big cities.

3) Cost-cutting during the next recession killing those fancy co-working spaces and retreats

4) Loss of team cohesion

Re: GitHub to lay off 10% and close all offices

#836

Post by mnd999 »

999900000999 wrote: post #834
mnd999 wrote: post #522

Remote only is short sighted. It might work okay for your experienced workforce, but for junior hires, especially new graduates, they get a lot from working alongside more experienced people. And when you’re young you want to go for drinks after work and socialise with colleagues. If you can’t keep the junior employees then your company has no future.

>And when you’re young you want to go for drinks after work and socialise with colleagues. And risk getting fired when you say something stupid. And force those with anxiety issues into forced socialization. What if you're disabled and have mobility issues ? Getting to an office everyday doesn't sound too fun.

Don’t say something stupid. I’m guessing socialising isn’t for you and that’s fine, work from home. I’m not suggesting office is for all or for every day, but it should be an option for those that want to go.

Re: GitHub to lay off 10% and close all offices

#837

Post by frognumber »

tracker1 wrote: post #421
chris222 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true! I worked at what some would consider one of the top offices (Dropbox). They went remote and the polling was something like 70% support 30% oppose. There were some vocal supporters of in-office (mostly due to the perks like food) but they gave a generous stipend instead to satisfy most people.

I find I work better in an office myself... been remote for about 3 years now, and I've gotten used to it. I miss lunch with coworkers, etc... and some of the more spontaneous discussions don't happen nearly as much... Also, I like a relatively short commute (around 30m) long enough to clear the mind before/after work.

For me, work environment makes a huge difference.

I work like crap in cubicle farms and typical corporate offices. I feel like I'm on display.

I work best in a private office, with a door that closes, a window that looks out on nature, and a very large whiteboard. Ideally, I'd like my team members have similar ones.

Home is in between.

I can work much longer hours if I can:

- do basic basic bodily functions (stretching, eating, drinking, scratching, a short power nap, etc.)

- change work positions (e.g. lie down with a laptop)

- make noise (phone calls, music, etc.)

- have my papers and books spread out as I see fit

... and so on.

I have never seen a tech firm where I was comfortable in the office, and it's especially hard in places like SFO/BOS/NYC/etc. where square feet cost so much.

My past few jobs weren't with tech firms, and I really enjoyed working in proper offices.

Re: GitHub to lay off 10% and close all offices

#838

Post by xpe »

ghusto wrote: post #93
xpe wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse than losing your job?

For sure. As somebody said already, at least if you're fired you'll get severance. I'd get nothing when I quit though. Have you _used_ MS Teams? I'm not exactly a fan of Slack, but it's like telepathy by comparison.

I have. It is particularly bad, considering that its technical and UX criteria are not particularly mysterious. Overall, yeah, when corporate policies override reasonable employee productivity, something is off.

Re: GitHub to lay off 10% and close all offices

#839

Post by xpe »

drewcoo wrote: post #349
xpe wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This metaphor doesn't work for me. Source code is not analogous to organizational behavior. Not to mention it gives readers confused context about the link, which is about GitLab layoffs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law

> Any organization that designs a system (defined broadly) will produce a design whose structure is a copy of the organization's communication structure. — Melvin E. Conway (via Wikipedia)

> The law is based on the reasoning that in order for a product to function, the authors and designers of its component parts must communicate with each other in order to ensure compatibility between the components. Therefore, the technical structure of a system will reflect the social boundaries of the organizations that produced it, across which communication is more difficult. In colloquial terms, it means complex products end up "shaped like" the organizational structure they are designed in or designed for. The law is applied primarily in the field of software architecture, though Conway directed it more broadly and its assumptions and conclusions apply to most technical fields.

Conway's Law does not apply (doesn't say one thing or another) regarding the connection source code and layoffs.

Re: GitHub to lay off 10% and close all offices

#840

Post by danaris »

WoodenChair wrote: post #711
simplicio wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but that works both ways. Employees are often reluctant to leave jobs where they have a lot of personal relationships, or if getting a new job would entail moving to a new city/state/country, even if jumping ship would entail a sizable payraise or other improvement in working conditions. In an industry where remote work is the norm and changing jobs doesn't even require changing offices, people are much less l…

> Employees are often reluctant to leave jobs where they have a lot of personal relationships, or if getting a new job would entail moving to a new city/state/country, even if jumping ship would entail a sizable payraise or other improvement in working conditions. Yeah you know I’d much rather work in a place where I have a very limited relationship with the people I spend at least 8 hours a day with. That was sarcas…

While I've not worked fully remotely for my actual job, I've had a "remote" side-project for about a decade now.

Some of the people I've worked with on it, I've made friends with—ranging from "friendly working relationship" to "would totally hang out with IRL if that were an option."

I'm also a member of a small online community that's about the same age, that includes a bunch of people who have never met physically, and probably never will, but who are very close friends, help each other through some pretty rough times, and are generally very supportive of each other.

"Remote" doesn't have to mean "never interact outside of pure work". You can 100% make friends remotely. Granted, it's not exactly the same type of social interaction as hanging out with someone in a physical space, but it's certainly social interaction—and for many people (me included), it's often better, because it doesn't have the same kinds of demands and pressures as physical interaction. As an introvert, it's much less draining for me to interact virtually.

If that's not true of you—if you're both someone who craves genuine physical interaction, and someone for whom the workplace is the primary place you want to get that—no one (or, well, nearly no one) is saying you shouldn't have access to that. We're just saying your experience is not universal, and we want to make sure there are a healthy variety of options for people with different needs and desires.

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