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Do not leave XPS laptop in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag

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Re: Do not leave XPS laptop in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag

#811

Post by PeterisP »

thesuitonym wrote: post #612
fxtentacle wrote: post #446

I stopped using my Microsoft Surface Pro because it had the same issues. It's a clusterfuck of bad design decisions at Microsoft, the most offensive one being that they prioritize the execution of their scheduled spyware upload (telemetry) over honoring the agreement with the user that a sleeping PC will remain asleep unless the user takes action. It'll even install updates at night and then make reboot sounds to wak…

Far be it for me to defend Microsoft here, but I feel like if you leave unsaved documents open overnight, you are asking for trouble. Why a person would ever walk away from a computer without saving is beyond me. This whole post is actually pretty confusing to me. I don't use Windows that frequently myself, but my work laptop, my wife's laptop, my child's laptop, and my Surface Pro 1 all have Windows 10 on them, and…

A key part is not only about saving particular documents but about keeping the whole state of all apps as-is, which is not compatible with "shut down my PCs regularly".

My workflow involves closing up the laptop, carrying it elsewhere (while it sleeps - it has to survive being in a bag so not heating up), reopening with all the exact state it had, potentially many times each day. Then at the end of computer-day closing it (to sleep mode), and starting the next morning exactly where I left off - not from a clean after-shutdown state. Even for an unavoidable reboot (e.g. install of OS version update) I'd expect most of that state to be restored e.g. OS X and compatible apps restoring most the open apps and documents as they were - sadly it doesn't work as well as it should, so sleep is strongly preferable to anything involving a reboot.

A full shutdown is an extraordinary event that's done when placing an unused system in long-term storage or when giving it to someone else, because all other daily usage (and short breaks e.g. weekends, not just "temporary moments when I'm away from my PC.") is better suited by a sleep/hibernate mode, at least if that works properly.

TL;DR - a need to shutdown regularly is a fundamental design flaw, not a problem between keyboard and chair.

Re: Do not leave XPS laptop in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag

#812

Post by PeterisP »

Terr_ wrote: post #642
fxtentacle wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why a person would ever walk away from a computer without saving is beyond me. In my case, it was mostly executables that I'm in the process of debugging and stepping through. I'm not aware of any debugger which can save and restore open file handles. > I just feel like a lot of the problems people have with Windows 10 aren't really in the software, but are between the keyboard and chair. I would have argued just l…

> executables that I'm in the process of debugging In my case, virtual-machines. When Windows 10 decided it had to reboot, it would kill them dead. You can't quicksave those, and even if you did they have a higher-than-normal chance of not coming back up cleanly.

That's interesting, I usually treat the ability of easily snapshotting and restoring virtual machines as one of the main reasons for doing things inside a VM.

Re: Do not leave XPS laptop in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag

#813

Post by pfooti »

radicalbyte wrote: post #485
fxtentacle wrote: post #446

I stopped using my Microsoft Surface Pro because it had the same issues. It's a clusterfuck of bad design decisions at Microsoft, the most offensive one being that they prioritize the execution of their scheduled spyware upload (telemetry) over honoring the agreement with the user that a sleeping PC will remain asleep unless the user takes action. It'll even install updates at night and then make reboot sounds to wak…

This is the literal reason I switched to OSX. I dislike the impractical design of Macbooks - horrible connectivity and no way to swap batteries. However the combination of 15 hrs battery life + closing the lid and it not melting a hole in my bag trumps any negatives.

FWIW I had a similar behavior on my (work) MacBook pro for a while. I'd unplug it from my screen for the weekend and find it overheated with a dead battery.

Turns out I kept bumping the Bluetooth mouse which kept waking it up, and it would stay awake for a while, even with the screen closed. Disabling the permission for Bluetooth devices to wake it fixed it, but I had a couple of Mondays where I couldn't do anything for a half hour while the machine charged up enough to boot.

Re: Do not leave XPS laptop in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag

#814

Post by kasabali »

zakary wrote: post #803
fxtentacle wrote: post #446

I stopped using my Microsoft Surface Pro because it had the same issues. It's a clusterfuck of bad design decisions at Microsoft, the most offensive one being that they prioritize the execution of their scheduled spyware upload (telemetry) over honoring the agreement with the user that a sleeping PC will remain asleep unless the user takes action. It'll even install updates at night and then make reboot sounds to wak…

I’d recommend just using a long term service channel version of Windows. It’s designed for embedded systems like MRIs so I doesn’t do any of the auto install and restart crap. Also doesn’t have the telemetry or most any other bloat ware Windows usually comes with.

> doesn’t do any of the auto install and restart crap

That's misleading.

LTSC version does everything regular versions do exactl wrt automatic updates and wakeups.

Only difference is you can disable these with group policy in enterprise versions (which ltsc is)

Re: Do not leave XPS laptop in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag

#815

Post by pera »

comeonseriously wrote: post #279
kelnos wrote: post #8

The issue is that Windows doesn't go into S3 sleep when you close the lid; it goes into a weird not-really-asleep state for... some reason that I don't agree with[0]. I guess that state is "hot" enough that you could damage the laptop by putting it in a bag while in that state. Fortunately I've been running Linux on my XPS 13, which I have put into a bag hundreds of times (maybe even over a thousand) while suspended.…

The very latest (9310) XPS 13 doesn't have S3 at all, though, from what I'm gathering. So even on Linux, it won't sleep well.

I have the same machine for work: early this year sleep mode was not very useful (it wouldn't pass a weekend), but after an Ubuntu upgrade a few months ago it got much better. Yet, it's still worse than my 6 year old ThinkPad.

Re: Do not leave XPS laptop in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag

#816

Post by vinay_ys »

naikrovek wrote: post #726
mjaniczek wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offtopic: > or when my WiFi router does its daily reboot. Damn, I think that might fix 99% of the issues I have with my WiFi router.

I have a $300 Ubiquiti Dream Machine and that thing CANT be scheduled to reboot. doesn't matter because Ethernet dies twice a day, and I need to use my phone to get to the admin page to restart the thing. most annoying and expensive router I've ever owned. I DO NOT understand how all routers I have ever owned are total garbage, but they all have been.

I have a Nokia GPON Home Gateway+Wifi Router given by my Fiber ISP. And it is on UPS and its been running for weeks without reboot just fine.

Re: Do not leave XPS laptop in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag

#818

Post by sponaugle »

katbyte wrote: post #763
naikrovek wrote: post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a $300 Ubiquiti Dream Machine and that thing CANT be scheduled to reboot. doesn't matter because Ethernet dies twice a day, and I need to use my phone to get to the admin page to restart the thing. most annoying and expensive router I've ever owned. I DO NOT understand how all routers I have ever owned are total garbage, but they all have been.

Weird, my udm pro goes months with no issues.. current uptime of most UniFi devices on my network is over 70 days right now. I’d say contact support because it shouldn’t so that, but their support isn’t great

Same here - My UDM Pro is over 90 days uptime, and that last reboot was only because I did an upgrade. I have heard of some people having problems, but mine has been flawless so far.

Re: Do not leave XPS laptop in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag

#819

Post by cesarb »

mimon wrote: post #809
Tuna-Fish wrote: post #800

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But all of those cases should be governed by a very simple overarching rule: If the laptop lid is closed, assume that it is in a closed bag with no cooling available to it. Because that is the usecase that hibernate is for. It makes laptops convenient by allowing you to just close the lid, put it in a bag, go somewhere, take it out of the bag, and then open it and continue working. If you need to tell people that the…

Except your rule isn't a rule at all, it's just you assuming everyone else has the same usage pattern as you (they don't). Pre-covid I had many co-workers who would sit down, plug their laptop into the dock, and work the whole day without ever opening the lid. I've also spent 15+ years with a laptop connected to my TV that never has the lid open, and I definitely expect it to wake up when I sit on the couch and wiggl…

That's because the parent comment's rule was incomplete. The correct rule would be: lid closed, with no external displays or external power connected.

Re: Do not leave XPS laptop in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag

#820

Post by wutbrodo »

rantingdemon wrote: post #795
wutbrodo wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a "lately" thing. In 2007, a friend of mine postponed his Windows updates often enough that the machine just restarted to install updates _in the middle of the day while he was using it_. This wasn't a glitch either: there was an Update pop-up that just informed him "fuck you I'm restarting in X minutes". I'm in awe at how much contempt some guy at Microsoft must have for users and their use-cases to conce…

I'm in two minds on this. As a user, it does irritate me that I'm forced to put all my work on hold to install updates. However, as a security professional, I think the general population doesn't understand just how critical it is to stay up to date with software updates. Sometimes we have to force them!

That's the thing: both of those views are compatible with my perspective. Contempt for the user may be in the interest of any given user, just like forcing your kid to eat vegetables instead of ice cream all the time is.

But forcibly shutting down a machine in the middle of the day during active usage is a cardinal sin, just about the most fundamental user-hostile activity I can imagine. Microsoft may be right, and there may be a portion of the general population whose computer usage is 100% pointless nonsense that can be interrupted as easily as you'd interrupt your child's videogame to make him do homework. But I'm not in that group, and I doubt anybody here would consider everything they do on their computer to fall into that bucket.

Computers touch _everything_. I'm not an NSA agent or a hacker on a heist team, and I can think of a dozen (non-work) times in the last month where a shutdown-interruption of the work I was doing would have been a big problem.

Which brings me to my tldr: I'm not suggesting that Windows' decision is a generally bad one. I'm saying that it's a poor fit for anyone who considers their computer to be anything but a useless toy.

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