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Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup

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Re: Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup

#81

Post by thesteamboat »

pqs wrote: post #29
rgbrenner wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "moral ground" mean? You mean, if I (a person that lives in the US) sees someone lose a human right, I should shut up, because some other guy who also lives in the US, who I've never met did something that I never approved of or endorsed? Like we should all be ok with an individual being victimized because anyone who wants to say something is guilty of something else by association... I guess the victims sh…

Are you sure the West has always been defending human rights in its interventions in other countries? We should separate the justification for meddling in another country's affairs with the root cause of the meddling.

You are substituting "the West" for rgbrenner's "those on the side of human rights", and in doing so are missing the point of his argument.

"The West" as a term is very broad and sufficiently undefined[0] that it makes a great rhetorical cudgel (both for people who support it and those against it). Unfortunately that same slipperiness makes it challenging for people trying to speak clearly. While "the West" has often been loosely aligned with human rights (some defending/embracing them, some merely claiming them as magic words) they certainly have their problems.

Your argument seems to be do the following: substitute an inferior term into rgbrenner's argument, and then complaining that your chosen term is inferior.

rgbrenner:> The sides aren't US and China, they're X and anti-X

you:> You say the sides are Y and anti-X, but Y isn't X

[0]: Do we mean America? America + Western Europe? Are we including Canada? How about Mexico? All colonial powers? Does Eastern Europe count? How about Australia? Or even Japan? You might have a particular definition in mind, but it's likely other people have different understandings.

Re: Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup

#82

Post by forgetfulness »

baybal2 wrote: post #53
oefrha wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question I always ask when people suggest warfare, especially an invasion: will you personally fight in it?

The predominant part of HN demographic are young military age men. In case of any real conflict US will get dragged in, you will all be drafted, want you or not. Becoming a soldier after being a freewheeling young man with 6 digit income, and effectively loosing everything you put into your career, business, education, relationship with your woman is not a pleasant thing. But think, sooner or later US will be dragged…

The kind of intervention HNer yuppies are advocating here in this case will only have poor, impressionable young men from the hinterland doing all the killing and all the dying for the elites, being desperate or straight up dumb enough to be manipulated into that.

WW3 is of course a different deal but that's way beyond the comfort zone of your run of the mill imperialist.

Re: Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup

#83

Post by secondcoming »

sva_ wrote: post #25
klunger wrote: post #5

A journalist is live tweeting updates here: https://twitter.com/the_ayeminthant/status/13560351897433088...

It's interesting that they say they've been logged out of Signal/Telegram and can't log back in due to being unable to receive a confirmation code as the cell services have been shut down. This type of thing seems to be happening more and more frequently. It is sad to see that there's not more of an effort to build (decentralized) communication technology independent from government/private infrastructure. I think we…

> My WhatsApp is working though

Very interesting. Is that possibly because the military can read WhatsApp messages?

Re: Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup

#84

Post by secfirstmd »

iso1631 wrote: post #39
baybal2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese have't toppled a democracy.. yet, but they were rather successful at absorbing banana republics previously belonging to major powers. China now has a dozen satellites made of countries formerly being playgrounds of foreign political games.

China's spent the last 15 years taking over Africa. Hell it's made a good job at bringing frickin Australia into its circles too. The West (and US in particular) has meanwhile done squat since making another mess in the middle east fighting for last century's resources.

To be fair the West spent 150 years taking over Africa, enslaving its people, treating them as animals and pillaging it's riches.

Re: Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup

#85

Post by tomp »

baybal2 wrote: post #59
VLM wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems is revolutions are people-based. No matter how many decades you keep American tanks in various middle eastern countries, if the people don't want to change, they won't. Consider if China makes a better offer for the country than the US State Dept, which seems likely based on historical performance of the US State Dept. After the USA blows up all their old tanks, cementing anti-US hatred for generations,…

This is very much a description of the fiasco US encountered in Iraq. The battle was a total triumph, but aftermath a tragedy, and mainly so for mind boggling incompetence of post-war Washington policy effectively instigating a civil war, then backing one side in it, then another, and then showing a middle finger to both, and walking away. All of this could've been avoided under different leadership.

> All of this could've been avoided under different leadership.

What do you mean? The war in Iraq has outlasted 3 US presidents, so clearly "different leadership" just doesn't work in practice.

IMO the US should completely change the modus operandi. "Invade & install new regime & call it democratic & steal oil" just isn't a good proposition for the local population. Unless the US can improve the proposition (to match China's "we give you lots of money and improve your quality of life") foreign military interventions just won't work.

Re: Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup

#86

Post by sandworm101 »

Fordec wrote: post #77
sandworm101 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Sanctions won’t work, but tanks would. Southeast asia + tanks = bad mojo. Study the history. Tanks are white elephants in areas dominated by mountains and rainfall (both are tank kryptonite). Sure, US air power could dominate. They can use the same flightpaths they used in Vietnam, to the same ends. Myanmar is a country where light soldiers, guys with AKs and flipflops, are far more capable than a dozen tanks sink…

If the recent Armenia Azerbaijan crisis was anything to go by, in mountainous terrain a drone/artillery combination is quite effective but a relatively new combat style on the scene.

>> in mountainous terrain

In mountainous terrain with few trees. Drones, and air power generally, become less effective over a dense canopy. The dry bare mountains of Afghanistan was a paradise for drones. Southeast Asia's jungles and river networks won't be.

Re: Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup

#87

Post by refurb »

enriquto wrote: post #47
refurb wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you'd argue "the West" had no moral authority to fight against Nazi Germany? The USSR and the Iron Curtain? Defend South Korea? Because "it has zero moral ground to criticize, as we've been doing exactly that since, well, forever."? Your statement is just illogical.

Nazi Germany was pretty much "the west", I don't know what do you mean about that. But just to be clear: yes, I think that it was wrong for Nazi Germany to invade their eastern neighbors. In more modern terms, I'd say that we shouldn't have sponsored the overthrow of Libya and given it to religious fundamentalists, for example.

You said Western countries have no moral high ground because they invaded other countries. Western countries (US, U.K., etc) invaded Nazi Germany. So by your argument they shouldn’t have done that? You can never invade another country and still have the moral high ground?

Re: Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup

#88

Post by Steltek »

samus wrote: post #69
jacquesm wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, but the Panama intervention was all about American economic interests, and the Grenada one was about saving American lives. What economic or other interests does the USA currently have in Myanmar?

Limiting Chinese influence could be a goal by itself. Of course, boots on the ground would mean risking a Chinese intervention as well, like it happened during the Korean War. Different to that one and Vietnam though is, in Myanmar there is no comparable status quo ante belli. It is not at all clear whether the West has any support or some sort of stake in Myanmar. It would be like Irak all over again.

Close. You described Vietnam all over again. The only American interest was in, and still is, stopping hostile foreign influence.

Re: Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup

#89

Post by 24gttghh »

tomp wrote: post #85
baybal2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very much a description of the fiasco US encountered in Iraq. The battle was a total triumph, but aftermath a tragedy, and mainly so for mind boggling incompetence of post-war Washington policy effectively instigating a civil war, then backing one side in it, then another, and then showing a middle finger to both, and walking away. All of this could've been avoided under different leadership.

> All of this could've been avoided under different leadership. What do you mean? The war in Iraq has outlasted 3 US presidents, so clearly "different leadership" just doesn't work in practice. IMO the US should completely change the modus operandi. "Invade & install new regime & call it democratic & steal oil" just isn't a good proposition for the local population. Unless the US can improve the proposition (to match…

I'm going to guess they are talking about different leadership from the one which started the Iraq war.

Re: Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup

#90

Post by DSingularity »

tomp wrote: post #85
baybal2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very much a description of the fiasco US encountered in Iraq. The battle was a total triumph, but aftermath a tragedy, and mainly so for mind boggling incompetence of post-war Washington policy effectively instigating a civil war, then backing one side in it, then another, and then showing a middle finger to both, and walking away. All of this could've been avoided under different leadership.

> All of this could've been avoided under different leadership. What do you mean? The war in Iraq has outlasted 3 US presidents, so clearly "different leadership" just doesn't work in practice. IMO the US should completely change the modus operandi. "Invade & install new regime & call it democratic & steal oil" just isn't a good proposition for the local population. Unless the US can improve the proposition (to match…

Please emphasize the "steal oil" part. Im pretty sure that the liberators became invaders once the local population figured out that OIL was the #1 target.
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