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Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

theguardian.com

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Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#81

Post by Yokohiii »

bluejekyll wrote: post #70
Yokohiii wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manipulation is on both sides of the spectrum, so I wouldn't unconditionally trust Al Gore or The Guardian either. (Not necessarily denying the topic). The media is simply by definition vulnerable to manipulation. At some point you have to trust someone who tells you the truth. There are many ways to bend the truth. What we need is strong ethics and a strong backing of them.

You're argument is basically, we can't trust either, so we should just throw our hands up and ignore them all? The entire point of the scientific method is to come to some common understanding of fact. What we need to demand is that articles are backed by properly run studies so that we can come to a common understanding based on good methods. Yes, Al Gore believes that the current warming trend and climate change is…

> You're argument is basically, we can't trust either, so we should just throw our hands up and ignore them all?

No. I didn't even suggest some immediate action for the current situation. There is probably no way to fix it.

The scientific method cannot solve everything. Maybe it can prove global warming. But the human factor can still corrupt any facts established. That is why I said we need strong ethics. We need to accept the truth, even if it is inconvenient.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#82

Post by ac29 »

humanrebar wrote: post #57
kasey_junk wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That claim was true more than 10 years ago. Responding to the hypocrisy claims he's travelled Southwest for a long time & buys offset credits when he does. That Trump was able to bring that back as if it were currently true is pretty clearly an example of the manipulation talked about in this article.

Aren't offset credits themselves a form of manipulation? Compared to being a solution, it seems just as likely to me that they're a cultural placebo.

Offset programs do fund impactful projects. You can take a took here [0] at one company who funds these sort of things and what they do with the money. Not all of them are carbon-offset programs, but many are. Capturing landfill gas emissions, or reforestation projects are definitely not placebos.

[0] https://www.naturalcapitalpartners.com/projects

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#83

Post by api »

benevol wrote: post #25
crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

> We need some way to get out of the disinformation bubble There is even something that came a long time before IT and the resulting disinformation bubble: Very unhealthy and materialistic values, deeply embedded in our current culture. I.e., we are constantly being told that being rich, being popular and to dominate others is a very desirable target.

Looking at human history I do not this this is new.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#84

Post by api »

im3w1l wrote: post #33
crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

It's about to get a lot worse. Realistic chat bots are only now coming into play. Soon there will be 10 bots per legitimate user in every online community that discusses politics.

A prediction of mine for the past year: in 2020 mass social media dies.

2016 was the first Internet election and showed the power of "fake news" (disinformation flooding) and data driven micro-targeting in an election. Trump won partly because he ran an Internet election while Clinton ran a TV era election. (Obama had a good net game too, but 2008 and 2012 were still dominated by old media.)

The Democrats will close this gap, as will a trillion varied think tanks and pressure groups not to mention a dozen foreign governments. Combine this with the advent of AI chat bots and you have a recipe for social media apocalypse.

My specific prediction is that in 2020 mass social media will be flooded and basically DOS'd to death by automated propaganda bots and algorithmically generated fake news. Sites like Reddit will be nothing but donkeybots arguing with elephantbots. Less than half of online news will be even remotely true, especially on social media. Most will be algorithmically targeted and written propaganda.

It will be like the advent of mechanized warfare in WWI, but with bullshit. Mechanized bullshit warfare. Feel free to visualize.

Social platforms will implement censorship and other measures to attempt to fight this DOS attack but these will ruin them for humans and drive people away.

Basically mass social will die the way Usenet died, but with AI and driven by big big money propaganda efforts.

Internet discussion will retreat to private enclaves. We may see a second BBS era.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#85

Post by nemo1618 »

crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

>BTW this article reminded me of a great show that Last Week Tonight did...

Last Week Tonight is one of the most blatant examples of media-driven manipulation on the air today.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#86

Post by hiram112 »

nemo1618 wrote: post #85
crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

>BTW this article reminded me of a great show that Last Week Tonight did... Last Week Tonight is one of the most blatant examples of media-driven manipulation on the air today.

This is so true.

The right has always had its own junk - things like Fox News, various 'Think Tanks' and academic institutions who are quite blatant in their bias.

But in the last few years, at least, I've been amazed at just how obvious it is when the left pushes a narrative, regardless of whether it's a hit piece against Trump or any of a dozen other themes: immigration is needed, climate change will destroy us all, women are bullied in tech, etc.

The same exact story, from out of nowhere, is suddenly blaring at me via CNN at the airport and McDonalds, headlining a dozen different magazines at the grocery store checkout, editorials in all the major papers, jokes from three different late night comedians, surprisingly highly-voted articles on Reddit, hashtags on Twitter, a placement in a popular sitcom or movie...

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#87

Post by dllthomas »

undersuit wrote: post #65
jasonkostempski wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that an actual full quote? When something like "says Gore" is jammed in the middle of a quote, I always suspect there was something else in between. It could be "umm" or it could be something that changes the meaning of the entire sentence.

It's the start of the full quote. I'm sorry maybe you could RTFA. >“I mean that those with access to large amounts of money and raw power,” says Gore, “have been able to subvert all reason and fact in collective decision making. The Koch brothers are the largest funders of climate change denial. And ExxonMobil claims it has stopped, but it really hasn’t. It has given a quarter of a billion dollars in donations to cli…

> I'm sorry maybe you could RTFA.

The parent's concern doesn't appear to be whether there was more quoted in the article, but whether the article elided part of the quote as it was originally given. You appear to recognize this in the second half of your comment, so I'm not sure why you conclude that the parent hasn't read the article.

Even if you've so concluded,

> Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."

from https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#88

Post by gremlinsinc »

jaredklewis wrote: post #74
bluejekyll wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give some examples of when and how the Left is doing this? From what I can tell, in general the left of the US is constantly making an attempt to be all inclusive. I'd agree that there hasn't been enough work to help people see that they have common cause with people who look different and live in different places. That's really whats needed, but it's never been clear to me how to help someone who is severely…

I think the left is not inclusive enough. Though perhaps a better way to describe it is that the left is increasingly unwelcoming, remarkably to the people whose votes we need. As an extremely liberal person who also happens to be from the south, I am horrified by my Facebook feed where everyday posts by liberal friends proudly mock conservatives as being stupid or bigoted. Being from the south, I know many conservat…

It's hard when some conservatives ARE stupid... I was sad at the Death of Chester Bennington...and one of my old friends...and my wife's best friends' husband -- said to me, "You know the Clinton's Killed him, right?"... and I'm like...okay give me concrete evidence, and he's can only give clear conspiracy theory sites, and I'm like... look here's what snopes says..and he's like...telling me Snopes is FAKE News and crap... as opposed to his sources which are all true...

I literally bloodied my head face-desking after the exchange...

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#89

Post by humanrebar »

ac29 wrote: post #82
humanrebar wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't offset credits themselves a form of manipulation? Compared to being a solution, it seems just as likely to me that they're a cultural placebo.

Offset programs do fund impactful projects. You can take a took here [0] at one company who funds these sort of things and what they do with the money. Not all of them are carbon-offset programs, but many are. Capturing landfill gas emissions, or reforestation projects are definitely not placebos. [0] https://www.naturalcapitalpartners.com/projects

The point is whether they actually offset the emissions enough, not whether there's any effect at all. If they only have a marginal effect but provide the feeling of a solution, it could get in the way of a more profound but more difficult solution.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#90

Post by bluejekyll »

jaredklewis wrote: post #74
bluejekyll wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give some examples of when and how the Left is doing this? From what I can tell, in general the left of the US is constantly making an attempt to be all inclusive. I'd agree that there hasn't been enough work to help people see that they have common cause with people who look different and live in different places. That's really whats needed, but it's never been clear to me how to help someone who is severely…

I think the left is not inclusive enough. Though perhaps a better way to describe it is that the left is increasingly unwelcoming, remarkably to the people whose votes we need. As an extremely liberal person who also happens to be from the south, I am horrified by my Facebook feed where everyday posts by liberal friends proudly mock conservatives as being stupid or bigoted. Being from the south, I know many conservat…

> one can sense a true disdain for many conservative points of view on topics like abortion, the role of religion in our society, and gun control.

Aren't these in fact lightning rod issues between conservatives and liberals in general?

The right for women to choose what to do with their bodies is generally a liberal sentiment. The right to be free of religions in every day life, again is a liberal (and constitutional) view. Gun control, is again a liberal desire (though probably not as stalwart as the others).

Why should liberals relax their views on these things? Liberals have relaxed on are some issues: economics, corporate policy, healthcare, etc.

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